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dlh:
"But to elevate it [The Bible] as a book to
a point above criticism , to insist that every
word and letter was dictated directly by God
and so can contain no historical, scientific,
or other inaccuracies, is again to forget that
in entering the world, God's word must speak
through human minds." Huston Smith in his book,
"Worlds Religions"
dlh:
"God is a human being without human limitations
who is read into the heavens. We disguised this
process by suggesting that the reason God was
so much like a human being was that the human
beings were in fact created in God's image.
However, we now recognize that it was the other
way around. The God of theism came into being
as a human creation. As such, this God too,
was mortal, and is now dying." Bishop John Shelby
Spong, in "Why Christianity Must Change or Die."
dlh:
"I would rather think of science as the
iceberg and fundamentalism as the approaching
Titanic." - eadon-com
dlh:
"My earlier views at the unsoundness of the
Christian scheme of salvation and the human
origin of the scriptures, have become clearer
and stronger with advancing years and I see
no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."
Abraham Lincoln
dlh:
"I have, with most of the dissenters in England,
some doubts as to his (Jesus Christ) divinity."-Ben
Franklin
dlh:
"-and the day will come when the mystical generation
of jesus , by the supreme being as his father,
in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with
the fable of the generation of Minerva in the
brain of Jupiter." ----Thomas Jefferson in a
letter to John Adams.
eadon-com:
dlh!!!
dlh:
I threw the net out, but did not catch any fundies
eadon, LOL [dlh was baiting the fundamentalist
Christians lurking in the chat channel, seeking
a religious debate]
dlh:
some days fishin not so good, LOL
eadon-com:
I was wondering about that! maybe they are cowering
in the corner hoping you will go away :)
dlh:
brother WarPriest, if here, would challenge
me, he loves the argument. In fact, brother
WarPriest liked arguing so much he decided he
would become a lawyer too, :)
eadon-com:
perhaps you would have fished more fundies from
the lake if you hadn't have carpet bombed it
with dynamite on previous occasions brother
dlh. Next time throw a few back alive so there
be more fundy fishin for the future :)
AtomicDog:
I think logic is basically man's inherent evolutionary
gift to make decisions (ie inductive reasoning...bob
ate the berries and died, maybe I shouldn't)
but I am fully aware of the limits of logic.
My question, however, to those who reject logic
is: what else is better at making decisions
WarPriest:
well atomic, for those things greatly outside
of our experience, revealed faith may be the
better answer
eadon-com:
Limits to knowledge must exist. This is no justification
for a god
DeaconNihilo:
use your gut atomic dog. then your heart then
your brain
eadon-com:
The difficulty with that DeaconNihilo is that
everyone believes in different things when they
use gut feelings. Gut feelings are a ferociously
unreliable path to the truth
Isolani:
Our topical ideas, the things we think every
day, are informed by what we choose to receive
as data during the day. Watch t.v. all day and
you'll think about that. Read the Bible and
you'll think that. You are what you eat, in
simple words. We program ourselves. The only
difference between ourselves and a computer
is that we can choose what we wish to imbibe,
what we wish to program our selves with.
JGR:
Isolani, there is great truth to that I think.
eadon-com:
I concur with Isolani's tell too
Isolani:
JGR I think so to. It's not my notion, of course.
I heard it.
JGR:
I was speculating last week, I could probably
turn FriarFryUp into an atheist in less than
a few months if I controlled his reading HABITS.
FriarFryUp:
JGR, I pray
I80PROOF:
yeah get FriarFryUp some real books for Christmas
WarPriest:
the problem with that eadon is that our sense
of logic tends to come from our guts too, does
it not...how can we use one gut feeling to trump
another (unless one is stronger than the other)
eadon-com:
I don't think that logic "comes from our guts",
WarPriest. Logic stems from rules that are verifiable
FriarFryUp:
I just like reading stuff that best relates
to my personal interest
DeaconNihilo:
you need a change FriarFryUp. try a harlequin
romance novel
Isolani:
FriarFryUp, if you fear that a wider acquaintance
with the world will hurt your rooted faith,
then your faith isn't worth beans.
FriarFryUp:
My faith is nice and rooted. I like history
as well. I'm smart, just ill-informed. I do
not fear, wider acquaintance with the world
will rot me Isolani
Isolani:
Good FriarFryUp. It will shake you though, then
your seed won't be sown on rocky soil
FriarFryUp:
My faith is rooted in the moment I heard God
speak, and offer me grace. Nothing can ever
change that
I80PROOF:
you heard GOD speak ???? that is scary
I80PROOF:
there are things called mental disorders they
hear all types of people , beings speak
Isolani:
Are dreams based on logic? We all dream.
I80PROOF:
you want to know about dreams read Sigmund Freud's
interpretation of dream. Dreams are all relative
to what you have experienced.
JPB:
I80PROOF Freud a little outdated don't you think
I80PROOF:
his interpretation of dreams is good though
but he was over rated. He made great break throughs
in psychology that founded new ideas that cant
be denied.
AtomicDog:
DeaconNihilo YES that is why you shouldn't use
feelings of the gut (as you say) to base decisions...thanks
for agreeing
WarPriest:
well AtomicDog, I'll just say "faith" which
is absolute certainty about the truth of a proposition
eadon-com:
That is why logic is superior to religion, which
is just hearsay
WarPriest:
[quotes eadon] eadon-com:
Logic stems
from rules that are verifiable----how do you
verify these rules??? using logic???
eadon-com:
Yes WarPriest, and everybody's "absolute certainty"
is different. look at all the different religions
and cults etc
eadon-com:
logic is based on mathematical rules WarPriest,
as you know
WarPriest:
so what eadon, your absolute certainty in logic
can be no better verified than someone's absolute
belief in the bible, or whatever
AtomicDog:
WarPriest so you mean nazi's that have a complete
'faith" about the truth of their propositions
are just as right then?
WarPriest:
of course they aren't right AtomicDog, because
I say they aren't
eadon-com:
Of course logic is better, Pythagoras proved
his theorem using logic. the bible has proven
precisely................. nothing.
DeaconNihilo:
logic is a tool to get from one set of premises,
point a, to another, point b. feel free to use
logic here but also feel free to chose your
premises
WarPriest:
they go with their feelings that are racist,
etc., and I go with my feelings which say they
are wrong
WarPriest:
[quotes eadon] eadon-com:
"Of course
logic is better, Pythagoras proved his theorem
using logic. the bible has proven precisely.................
nothing"-----this is a completely circular argument
AtomicDog:
BUT THEY BOTH ARE FEELINGS....who is to then
say who is right and wrong then if you throw
away logic!!!!!
eadon-com:
WarPriest, why is it circular? you haven't explained?
WarPriest:
AtomicDog, logic is based on the gut too, who
is to say that logic is correct!!!!
Isolani:
Do we remember sometimes our dreams, the poignant
ones?
WarPriest:
Of course logic is better, Pythagoras proved
his theorem using logic.----you are saying that
logic is good because things are proven using
logic...things can also be proven without the
laws of logic...get rid of the laws of logic
and I may be able to prove anything!!!
eadon-com:
WarPriest given simple and reasonable axioms,
like 1+1=2, logic works. OK you have to have
faith in the axioms, but this is better than
having faith in some book as profoundly ridiculous
as the bible.
eadon-com:
Nothing is proven without logic. So that is
WarPriest's argument up in flames
WarPriest:
well eadon, I'll come up with the Spenserian
logical system with different principles and
I can prove things as well
eadon-com:
But with religion, you can say nothing that
has any framework within truth what so ever.
So religion is inferior to logic. All a religious
man can say is "I believe I am correct" This
is inherently bad because humans are usually
wrong about everything
WarPriest:
All I have to do is change the law of non-contradiction
to the law of contradiction and I can prove
new things such as "If the world exists then
it doesn't exist"
eadon-com:
Sure WarPriest, you can play games to made contradictions
but those contradictions are well understood
for what they are. The paradoxes of religion
do not fare so well
WarPriest:
how do you understand them for what they are
eadon??? using logic??? using my system I can
come to negative assumptions regarding the outcome
of the conventional logical system
eadon-com:
Well we are going round in circles now WarPriest.
you refuse to work by the rules of logic. I
do. All we can do is agree to differ :)
WarPriest:
well, eadon, I am just trying to show you that
any attempt to rationally support rationality
is doomed...that would indicate to me that we
accept rationality for non-rational reasons
and what is good for the goose is good for the
gander
eadon-com:
yes WarPriest, your argument boils down to this:
Someone who doesn't accept logic can defy it.
eadon-com:
Therefore we cannot apply logic to those who
believe in things that are illogical. I think
we both agree on this one :)
WarPriest:
no, my argument is that those who accept rationality
as the final arbiter of truth are being at least
as irrational in that decision as any religious
person could be
I80PROOF:
disagree cause religion was created by fear
human can not understand what they are here
for so they made a reason
eadon-com:
There is one mathematics and science. Many religions.
I wonder why.
WarPriest:
there is more than one mathematics...Euclidean
geometry and non-Euclidean...different by one
assumption
eadon-com:
non-Euclidean is an extension of Euclidean,
they are the same math WarPriest. Euclidean
is a simple case of non-Euclidean geometry.
WarPriest:
eadon I can say that any particular religion
is just an extension of a belief in a supreme
being
I80PROOF:
maybe he meant by set of numbers there is only
1 but then we could have a base 3 # system and
not base 10
eadon-com:
yes but the mathematics is still the same I80PROOF.
Just the number base changes. but PI is still
just over 3 except in binary it would be just
over 11 :)
I80PROOF:
yeah but there might be more than one way
WarPriest:
no, christianity adds assumptions to the belief
in a supreme being, Euclidean adds an assumption
to non-Euclidean...substantially the same case
I80PROOF:
I don't want to learn about god if you are going
to try to promote that crap
eadon-com:
WarPriest I don't find your tell is very convincing
because Euclidian geometry is logical where
as the bible is illogical.
WarPriest:
my god eadon
eadon-com:
Christians are always trying to piggyback on
science and mathematics in order to convince
the world that their unscientific nonsense is
true
WarPriest:
why piggy-back on something which is based,
ultimately, on irrationality in order to give
the appearance of rationality
eadon-com:
You just did it! using Euclidean geometry. Jeez!
Christians!
WarPriest:
no, I did no such thing
eadon-com:
here is the proof: [quotes WarPriest] WarPriest:
"no, christianity
adds assumptions to the belief in a supreme
being, Euclidean adds an assumption to non-Euclidean...substantially
the same case"
WarPriest:
how does that support your contention
eadon-com:
See? your argument is so fatuous I don't even
know why I am arguing against it, WarPriest
WarPriest:
you are just being difficult
eadon-com:
Yes, science is very difficult for religionists
to swallow :(
WarPriest:
eadon can't go beyond rationality
I80PROOF:
I was brought up christian and when I reached
a certain age I started to think therefore I
do not believe in that anymore. Maybe christians
are just those who wish not to think.
I80PROOF:
But I would like a religionist to tell why he
or she believes enough of this arguing about
rationality I want to hear the other side of
it. I believe it is fear
Isolani:
I believe because it's fashionable :)
WarPriest:
I believe for the same reason that you believe
in rationality...my programming. I am programmed
to believe in rationality and God, you are only
programmed to believe in the former.
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Russ | Subject: | 2001-11-16 07:55:46 |
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