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catdoc:
Science is concerned with the fact that there
is no supernatural, except as an aspect of psychology.
PrayingMattress:
the only
true purpose for religion is God's attempt to
reach man
Isolani:
Religion as we see it in its political get-up
doesn't seem to be concerned with either science
OR the supernatural, more money
WarPriest:
that is wrong catdoc
PrayingMattress:
yes some
religion is false
eadon-com:
Science merely deals with what is provable.
WarPriest:
there is no scientific theory/law/etc. that
non-natural or supernatural things do not happen
eadon-com:
We can rule out miracles for example
WarPriest:
you cannot
PrayingMattress:
why is that?
Why can you rule out miracles
eadon-com:
If somebody tells you they witnessed a miracle,
then it is obvious that miracles are very very
rare, they have not been verified experimentally,
where as people telling lies or being unwittingly
mistaken, or being mislead in some way is very
very common. Therefore you should always believe
the latter explanation, not the miracle explanation.
Simple.
WarPriest:
you can't verify many things experimentally.
PrayingMattress:
my grandmother
had terminal cancer and given 6 months to live...
the cancer disappeared and she lived another
30.. the doctors could not explain it... was
it a miracle?
eadon-com:
No PrayingMattress that was not a miracle because
it is not beyond a natural explanation
WarPriest:
true, it isn't
PrayingMattress:
then what
happened, science did not explain it
catdoc:
It was no more a miracle that the cancer went
away, as that it appeared in the first place.
eadon-com:
Recovering from a disease is not a miracle,
PrayingMattress, it is called recovering from
a disease
PrayingMattress:
science did
not explain it, so science must still have limits
JGR:
PrayingMattress. Science can explain it. He
recovered. Cancer do go into remission.
eadon-com:
Science does not claim to explain everything,
this is a common misconception amongst the uninitiated.
Recovering from cancer is possible scientifically,
so it is not a miracle.
WarPriest:
eadon-com is of course confusing some philosophical
theories. He is confusing epistemology and metaphysics
is a common mistake too, made by many people,
in this channel, at this moment
eadon-com:
religion is metaphysical, WarPriest, science
it not That's why religion will always lose
ground to science: because science, as it advances,
will explain more and more things. Religion
will not explain anything without recourse to
miracles!
WarPriest:
but, eadon-com...you are using epistemological
arguments to make dogmatic statements about
the way things are, which is a fallacy
Isolani:
Phenomenon will never lose ground to science
IMHO
eadon-com:
that, WarPriest, is an easy thing to say, but
you have argued badly, without using logical
argument, you just make statements
WarPriest:
it is evident. Do you want proof?
eadon-com:
I have argued using logic, you just say things
like, miracles do happen. I do not feel obliged
to respect your arguments.
WarPriest:
HAHA
Isolani:
There will always be something unexplained.
WarPriest:
either you know you made a fallacy or you are
ignorant of it but have the instinct that you
did wrong
PopePious:
Miracles do happen. I have witnessed several.
WarPriest:
nice try eadon-com
eadon-com:
you have failed to use logic, WarPriest, unless
you argue intelligently, instead of simply saying
nice try, I will not be swayed
WarPriest:
I cannot sway you as you claim to not respect
my arguments, just because I point out your
mistakes!!!!
PopePious:
I am not here to convince you. I merely state
what I have observed.
WarPriest:
but I have played the game enough with you eadon-com....i
doubt that you would admit your fallacy even
if you were fully convinced of it
eadon-com:
WarPriest, You are not a skilled orator, any
idiot can just say, "I point out your mistakes",
without explaining where the error of the reason
is LOL
WarPriest:
and I doubt your dogmatic beliefs would yield
an inch to the mightiest use of logic and rhetoric.
I asked if you wanted proof and you said that
you won't respect my arguments.....
catdoc:
Cancer cures represent a small part of the cancer
population, just as cancer patients represent
as small part of the general population. The
same forces are at work: the immune system against
the cancer, and the cancer against itself. The
extent to which the cancer is differentiated.
WarPriest:
how can I prove something to you if you say
upfront that you won't respect it? Such a moron
eadon-com:
prove it, WarPriest!
PopePious:
JGR, eyewitness testimony is reliable, from
"this fellow"
eadon-com:
WarPriest, listen to catdoc and learn logic!
PopePious:
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put
confidence in man. Psalms 118:8
catdoc:
The nature Granny's recovery could not be known
after the fact, but the processes at work could
be described, if she could be watched, at a
molecular level. There was no miracle. Believing
that some force can save some, but not other,
people, is simply superstition.
WarPriest:
you said that a person shouldn't believe in
miracles, because miracles are by their very
nature rare and it is more probable that the
teller of it is lying
eadon-com:
that is roughly the gist, yes, or mistaken or
lying or deceived. The latter explanations are
more common than miracles
Isolani:
Saved? More like "postponing death
WarPriest:
though it may be more probable that a person
is lying or is mistaken or etc....you cannot
say with certainty that they are
eadon-com:
no, but statistically you would always doubt
the miracle with a great degree of certainly.
Lack of 100% certainly. does not prove the contrary.
That is a fallacy, a trick employed by the unwise
WarPriest:
you are attributing arguments to me that I did
not make
PopePious:
So you are certain that you doubt. Well that
explains it.
WarPriest:
that is the straw man fallacy
catdoc:
People believe that miracles save children who've
been in comas after being drowned. And the crazy
logic, of a miracle being needed to undo an
event - tying a little causal knot - instead
of just having the event not happen at all,
sails right by.
WarPriest:
I did not say that it being possible proves
that it is true
eadon-com:
WarPriest, listen to catdoc
JGR:
What about when someone gets struck by lightning
twice? That must also be considered a miracle
no?
WarPriest:
I've heard these arguments eadon-com
eadon-com:
you are using tricks to prove your point, not
reason, WarPriest. Just denying things without
argument is not cricket
WarPriest:
now, since we agree on you argument, we can
say that making a claim that an unexpected event
is never a miracle is truly making a metaphysical
claim...and this can't be substantiated by epistemological
arguments
eadon-com:
prove to me that miracles happen, as you promised
catdoc:
Of course you have heard these arguments before.
If you say something nuts, someone will say
"That's nuts". Saying "Yeah, I've heard that
before" doesn't actually mean a whole lot.
JGR:
When someone is harmed badly by extreme extraordinary
circumstances. These are not considered miracles
but a remission of cancer is. blah.
WarPriest:
I never said that I would prove that miracles
happen...if I did then produce the tell
eadon-com:
[ quotes WarPriest ]: WarPriest:
"I asked if you wanted proof and you said that
you won't respect my arguments....."
WarPriest:
the point is catdoc....i don't need to listen
in-depth to the argument you are presenting
when I have read it in the original forms by
the philosophers
WarPriest:
yes, that was in reference to my claim that
you made a logical fallacy
WarPriest:
you responded that you won't respect my arguments,
then told me to prove it
eadon-com:
WarPriest, unless you argue with intelligent
logic, you cannot claim the argument
WarPriest:
I said that since you won't respect my arguments,
proving what is say is a futile exercise
catdoc:
"The original forms by the philosophers"? Since
you've read it in depth, you might just point
us at which philosopher you've heard this particular
argument from before?
WarPriest:
where is my fallacy: I am pointing yours out
WarPriest:
[quotes eadon-com] eadon-com:
"no PrayingMattress
that was not a miracle."
WarPriest:
[quotes eadon-com] eadon-com:
"because
it is not beyond a natural explanation
WarPriest:
[quotes eadon-com] eadon-com:
"recovering
from cancer is possible scientifically, so it
is not a miracle.
eadon-com:
yes
WarPriest:
these are metaphysical claims and are clearly
not supported by your epistemological arguments...case
closed
eadon-com:
a miracle would constitute an event that cannot
be explained by physics
PopePious:
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes Proverbs
12:15
WarPriest:
no eadon-com
Jupiter:
quite profound PopePious..
WarPriest:
I have....you fail to. You are not showing integrity
or understanding here so the argument is closed
WarPriest:
believe what you will
catdoc:
Hm? Or do you just mean, the ideas are familiar.
But having nothing really sensible to offer
against them, you can only say "Yes, yes, someone
famous said that, I'm sure. Someone else refuted
it. So I will just make random assertions about
what feels good to me".
eadon-com:
anybody can say "you are wrong" and then not
say why
PopePious:
The integrity of the upright shall guide them,
but the perverseness of transgressors shall
destroy them. Proverbs 11:3
Jupiter:
quit while your ahead PopePious..
WarPriest:
I said you were wrong and proved it
WarPriest:
you ignore truth when it doesn't suit you
eadon-com:
very clever WarPriest, I am sure
eadon-com:
do not argue with an idiot for people might
not know the difference
PrayingMattress:
as an unbiased
observer, I agree with WarPriest
catdoc:
I'm thinking that I'm not going to be hearing
which philosophers framed the originals of the
tells of mine, that WarPriest had already studied
in depth. Seems like it, no?
PopePious:
The hope of the righteous shall be gladness,
but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28
catdoc:
I'm thinking that was just a spurious claim
to authority, a complete rhetorical dodge, without
anything to support it whatsoever.
WarPriest:
I can't argue two lines at once catdoc
WarPriest:
you are essentially making an argument which
appears in Hume's essay on miracles
eadon-com:
yes, probably
PopePious:
It is a sport to a fool to do mischief Proverbs
10:23
WarPriest:
eadon-com was especially
catdoc:
So take the easier one. Find someone who's saying
something stupid - a guest, maybe - and argue
their point. You see this technique all the
time here.
Jupiter:
ouch... PopePious.. that one hits home...
JGR:
Yes catdoc.
PopePious:
He that hides hatred, with lying lips, and he
that utters slander, is a fool. Proverbs 10:18
eadon-com:
well I wouldn't condemn yourself so quickly,
PopePious
catdoc:
Any argument about miracles or causation will
go over these points, "essentially". Hume is
a name that will do as well as any other, to
make a fine impression.
PopePious:
The mouth of the righteous is a well of life,
but violence covers the mouth of the wicked.
Proverbs 10:11
WarPriest:
Hume originated the argument in it's formal
so he has to be given credit
eadon-com:
I believe Hume and not WarPriest
catdoc:
What argument is that, WarPriest?
WarPriest:
and I understand your points
PopePious:
The wise in heart will receive commandments,
but a prating fool shall fall. Proverbs 10:8
WarPriest:
which are really Hume's
WarPriest:
and many of those points are good
eadon-com:
WarPriest, Hume made a reasoned argument where
as you use shallow and transparent rhetoric.
I know my allegiance with this one
WarPriest:
but there is a difference between hearing reports
of miracles happening many years ago or hearing
1000 hand accounts than experiencing something
directly
eadon-com:
Hume leads me not to take you seriously
WarPriest:
I have not touched on Hume's argument yet
WarPriest:
so how can you say you believe Hume over me
when I haven't given an argument counter to
Hume's and believe that many of his points were
good!
PrayingMattress:
outside noisy,
inside empty Chinese Proverb
eadon-com:
PrayingMattress up yours, English proverb :)
eadon-com:
sorry I didn't mean that
PrayingMattress:
I know
WarPriest:
you simply are ridiculous eadon-com
Jupiter:
WarPriest is a strong debater... but doc is
formidable..
PopePious:
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean
not on your own understanding. Proverbs 3:5
eadon-com:
WarPriest, please stop using rhetoric and use
logic. Why am I ridiculous
eadon-com:
I AM ridiculous of course but you should explain
why
eadon-com:
otherwise I say that you are a cheap bullsh*tter
WarPriest:
because you say that you will not respect my
arguments....then you ask me to prove things,
then when I make a clear argument which is obvious
you don't respect it and accuse me of using
bad logic without even pointing out my fallacy,
then you attribute arguments to me that I don't
make
WarPriest:
that, among other things is why you are ridiculous
eadon-com:
You use my arguments against your good self
against me. Yawn
WarPriest:
and when I point all this out to you (which
I have done at least twice on each point) you
totally ignore it
eadon-com:
I refer you to my above statement
WarPriest:
you are like a dog snipping at the heels wasting
useful time
eadon-com:
rhetoric will get you nowhere, but nice analogy
:)
eadon-com:
you are like a jelly fish arguing against the
existence of air
Jupiter:
abstract metaphors are counter productive eadon-com...
WarPriest:
I'm glad you now understand...whatever it is
you now understand
eadon-com:
Jupiter abstract metafores [sic - embarrassing
hastily typed spelling mistake there] are like
green pigs orbiting the earth They are green
but undetectable, so you can't prove me wrong:
:)
Membrane:
What's a metafore?
eadon-com:
a metafore is like a simile
Membrane:
No, I don't think that's what a metafore is.
eadon-com:
no, Membrane, that is what a metaphor is LIKE
:)
HammondEggs:
Actually, a simile is a form of metaphor.
Jupiter:
metaphors suck don't they Membrane?
catdoc:
The world of science shouldn't be confused with
"reality". There is much more to the world than
the modelling of its processes. But to insist
that the way things happen in that world can
be changed by one's own narrative, is absurd.
Affects are real. But they don't cure granny's
cancer.
eadon-com:
you would make a convincing preacher catdoc
LOL
catdoc:
It's absurd because once you decide that anything
can be any way you like, if you clap your hands
and wish hard enough, then there's no stopping.
No point in believing in causality at all, really,
if you think there's a secret principle that
is constantly reworking the nature of reality.
WarPriest:
catdoc....the point of the miracle is that it
doesn't happen a whole lot
WarPriest:
that is one point at least and it does violate
natural causality, but causality itself. I see
how it can be dangerous for someone to ignore
the natural and just pray to God for everything
because it is evident that most things are natural
but from the standpoint of the christian they
believe that they have experienced God's presence
in a tangible way and in a way which confirms
the Bible
catdoc:
Miracles of the sort we're talking about here
happen constantly, WarPriest. Every hospital
is crawling with them. Every life and death
issue is a miracle, if the coin comes down heads.
The evangelists say it's a miracle when God
comes through with the $2 million for the satellite
feed.
PopePious:
Enter through the straight gate.... for straight
is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads
to life, and few there be that find it. Jesus
(in Matthew 7:13-14)
PopePious:
If God be for us, who can be against us? Romans
9:31
PopePious:
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God
is eternal life, through Jesus Christ. Romans
6:23
PopePious:
Without faith, it is impossible to please God,
for whoever comes to God must believe that He
exists, and that he rewards them that diligently
seek Him. Hebrew 11:6
eadon-com:
PopePious is a biblebot. Being a computer program
he can be doomed by the devil-virus
JGR:
lol. That Biblebot needs a spellcheck.
eadon-com:
can it be turned off? set PopePious off
PopePious:
Through faith, we understand that the worlds
were framed by the Word of God. Hebrews 11:3
JGR:
ok PopePious. Two can
play at this game.
JGR:
Deut 22:28-29 " If a man happens to meet a virgin
who is not pledged to be married and rapes her
and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's
father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry
the girl, for he has violated her. A VIRGIN
WHO IS RAPED MUST MARRY HER ATTACKER! RAPIST
PAYS A FINE!
PopePious:
Come to me, all you who labor, and you will
find rest for your souls. Jesus (in Matthew
11:29)
JGR:
Exodus 21:20 and 22 And if a man smite his servant,
or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his
hand; he shall be surely punished. If he continue
a day or two, he shall not be punished: for
he is his money. IT'S OK TO KILL A SLAVE, AS
LONG AS THEY DON'T DIE RIGHT AWAY FROM THE BLOW!
PopePious:
Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden,
and I will give you rest. Jesus (in Matthew
11:28)
JGR:
GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is
omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for)
God. 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together
they could not defeat the plainsmen because
the latter had iron chariots.
PopePious:
Judge not, that you be not judged, for with
what judgement you judge, you will be judged.
Jesus (in Matthew 7:1-2)
JGR:
Numbers 22:21-30 Then the LORD opened the donkey's
mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I
done to you to make you beat me these three
times?" Balaam answered the donkey, "You have
made a fool of me! TALKING DONKEYS!! THE LAWD
IS MYSTERIOUS!!
Isolani:
Even in contentment I still feel the need for
some imperishable bliss. - King David
Isolani:
Is that poetry or what? Actually David didn't
say that. Wallace Stevens did.
Isolani:
Did not the Lord say, "I am the first borne
of many sons," sons being plural?
WarPriest:
then they believe the bible to be true...then
they pray and hope that God will answer. This
is the experience of many christians
WarPriest:
the bible doesn't say that God will do everything
you ask...so I don't see how it is dangerous
Isolani:
Christians do more to defile the good poetry/truth
of the bible than any sect. It's a natural with
them to hit you over the head with non-sequiturs
and, barring those, stones.
WarPriest:
if you are a christian and believe in God and
also believe in science, then you believe (obviously)
that God created science and it's laws.....
Isolani:
I believe in WarPriest!
WarPriest:
then, if you pray to God and something improbable
happens but is within the bounds of science
what do you credit?
WarPriest:
I am coming at this from the perspective of
the christian and one thing you can always say
about tautologies.. they're true!
Isolani:
God made beer. Men actually made beer, but God
really made it. That's my ontology
WarPriest:
I am not making an argument for miracles, oh
unsubtle one, I am responding to the claim that
to believe in miracles by prayer, etc, is absurd.
My point is...to attack belief in miracles...you
actually have to attack belief in God of most
religion
eadon-com:
as it happens, in my life there are no miracles
and few coincidences, but I do not invoke some
god to explain the dearth of miracles and coincidences
catdoc:
Not at all, WarPriest. Miracles are just a crazy
superstition, that have nothing to do with God's
existence, one way or the other.
WarPriest:
there are of course natural religions (natural
in the sense that they appeal to miracles, etc.
as support for God's existence)
eadon-com:
No miracle has been proven. This is evidence
against christianity. Where are the miracles???
If there are no miracles then there is no supernatural
being needed to 'explain' them.
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pieguy | Subject: | 2006-10-28 14:30:37 |
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Anthropithicus | Subject: | 2006-11-28 20:38:07 |
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confusedOFreality | Subject: | 2006-12-12 00:46:48 |
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James | Subject: | 2007-08-07 01:15:04 |
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Hartley | Subject: | 2007-12-24 05:57:01 |
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lizzy | Subject: | 2008-02-22 03:25:50 |
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lizzy | Subject: | 2008-02-22 03:31:13 |
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