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Matt Q | 2001-03-05 14:11:26 | | Subject: | Science against religion | | Comment: | I was reading with some interest and frankly amusement at the banter being exchanged between warpriest et al on the subject of science vs religion. My point being that there is no need for this constant battle, fun though it may be. The fact of the matter is both have portrayed equally rediculous visions of the world to people, science claimed space travel could not be achieved but then promptly took us there. Religion has told us that the world was created in seven days.
The basis of both theores however is remarkably similar, they differ only on ONE factor. That factor is this:
Science: The universe was created, is maitained and is totally subservient to a force that, though invisible and intangible, is omnipotent and indestructable. Detectable only through its influence on our surrondings. Nothing is above it. This force is indiscriminate and unconcious. It is Physics
Religion: This force is ultimately benevolent and concious. It is GOD
So is such a miniscule difference so important as to warrent the division of nature and supernature for the past 200 yrs. I culture is truly advanced when the scientific and spiritual walk hand in hand. Fact and faith make a good team. Look at Mulder and Skully!!
A little food for though however for you true athiests out there this is what converted me to a scientific belief in the afterlife:
1: If life is pointless so is this argument so shut up.
2: Conciousness and the thought pattern is pure energy and as science dictates, energy cannot be created or destroyed, where does it go when you die?
3: Finally what is the point of intelligence if the outcome is irrelevant, the science of evolution dictates, everything is for the best and for a reason....what is that reason my friends...... | | | | | From: |
Heretical Heathen | 2001-04-07 19:07:07 | | Subject: | Miracles | | Comment: | Lightening; If we believe that every time science explains an event that it is no longer a miracle, than we condemn ourselves to a belief in an Ever Shrinking God. Further, in order to keep this wrongful belief (Not wanting our God to shrink.)we make ourselves into the enimies of scientific progress.
If we believe that God created nature and is willing to violate his own rules. Then we must admit to a belief in the Cheating God.
His relative was given 6 months to live and lived 30 years. He cried out 'It's a miracle.' If another one of his relatives is given 6 months to live and dies the next day will he cry out 'It's a miracle' again? Statiscal anomalies are still part of the overall norm. If however, his relative were given 6 months to live and lived 300 years, now THAT would be what is commonly referred to as a miracle. | | | | | From: |
Stone that bleeds | 2001-04-21 11:52:02 | | Subject: | Miracles science and religion | | Comment: | Miracles are the events that are seen outside of science yet are in science but not explainable by lower evolved entities. Oooo ahhh 'fire' = miracle!
Most miracles are jus plain normal events that most never seen because they are rare. True miracles do not happen... always someone is doing something in direction of the event... often more than one! Jesus cheated death? No.. He was brought back and the body was diffrent... see how a simple thing is said to be miracle when today we say nanobots could of done the job and/or he be tended to by higher inteligence and skills.
He was murdered yes... dead??? Hes body was diffrent so something scientific happened BUT is avoided. Rubed mud in eyes but it was miracle over nanobots or such thing... all religions are same...exagerations of facts to get from the many to the few...greed over faith...thirst over need... few just plain are in balance with nature and aid others...only true religion of Earth by any name or place or kind.
To just put a blind following is silly yet most do it... few understand God and rarely does any give him superior science over this 'Out of nothing comes something and it fit perfect stuff' that is impossible and not logical to even God himself!'
Want to find God? science/Nature/perception/compassion/acting on it... such is simple...God is a superior inteligence...so what if he is a machine... he made Jesus and he is not machine... where do you think science lead?
Go amze a child with 'Magic' and see how foolish all have been all this time. If you do not understand it is not miracle... you just do not understand!!!
Why drop 1/2 the brain to explain? | | | | | From: |
makingmanyrich | 2001-05-18 17:33:10 | | Subject: | miracles | | Comment: | 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, by faith we know the worlds were formed by the Word of God' Hebrews 11
We walk by faith and not by sight. I wonder, you who knocd prayingmattress's miracle; Would you be praying if you had terminal cancer? Why does almost every grave stone have a cross thereon. Death has a way of bringing things into perspective. I think that you should cease with examining your own intelligence or lack thereof and nifty witty wordings and reach out to the creator who reached out to you 2000 years ago on a Roman cross. 'While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.' Also it is weak to look at the examples of so-called Christians that don't fit the script and base your whole view on them. This to me sounds irrational. Following Christ is not man following man. It is man following God. | | | | | From: |
Bill (Belinda Doy) | 2001-05-25 04:09:01 | | Subject: | ? | | Comment: | God Was made up by someone who was scared to die.
i could be the son of god trying to sell you a light?
if god exists how is it possible that he is his own father and in turn, his own son?
ANSWER ME THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | | | | | From: |
Jeremiah | 2001-06-14 11:32:58 | | Subject: | Christians at Peace...Atheists in Pain | | Comment: | atheists are funny, arent they now,
they claim no God but I ask how...
this very existence do they explain,
that allows them to have a reasoning brain....
I give thanks to my Creator, my God,
For my soul and the path I have trod...
Though I have felt much suffering and pain,
He has helped me to grow and spiritually gain...
Those who believe not and want to live without strife,
Will slog through each day with no purpose for life...
And when the day comes that my life will cease,
I'll be with Him forever in eternal peace...
Intellectual pedantics and logic are layers
of the insipid arguments which 'justify' theirs...
But as for me, and all Christian faces,
We believe in God's word: 'In my Home are
Many Places'....
May you find peace and understanding
in Biblical truths....God Bless You | | | | | From: |
Shady | 2001-09-28 21:00:12 | | Subject: | the atheist pain subject! | | Comment: | ok you know we aint in pain there is no god. you know scientists have found that maybe apes have changed a little over years and years and that we maybe what they transformed into and it is like Hello man wrote bible do you trust man I mean would you trust Bin Laden now if there was a god them why wont he help us out? think about that we kill each other and it is like do you really like going to a church jsut too hear some man tell you that you are bad that you dont deserve to be forgivin but this God guy you people beleive in will forgive you I think some guy who wanted to feel better mad him up and told people and they made up stories about what god and his 'followers' did I mean I bet the dude who made it up was a sucker with no friends who had a brain problem. how can you guys liek worship a guy you dont know if he really exists? jsut think about that if you wanna chat email me at cody-10@excite.com I will be happy to tell you more and hear your comments | | | | | From: |
heebz666 | 2001-11-19 10:04:39 | | Subject: | personal confusion about beliefs | | Comment: | I think people worry too much about what 'the rest of their family' believes in. too me what happens in the past don't matter. if you lose sombody you love it will only be a memory for the rest of your life. religion brings fear and how i see it paranoia, why? people believe in an imaginary 'god' that can see and know every single thing that you do and he's supposed to be 'Perfect', yet he's jealous and from my point of view i never seen that jesus character or heard him ever in my life if 'god'was how every preacher or sermon said he (or she?) was in church my life should be perfect but he's jealous of other religious beliefs and plaguing everyone's minds with prejudice thoughts. maybe if the bible made sense and didn't OBVIOUSLY mix up the stories and if the 'believers' actually knew their religion and didn't react to non-believers in a negative way our world would be leading to a more comfortable planet if there were no religions possessing people with 'prejudice against other beliefs' thoughts and every one had a free mind not worrying about what another believs in and worry about themselves. i mean im tired of religious people staring at me in disgust or 'believers' damning me to hell or whatever 'bad place' just because i dress in dark colors have spiked hair and a trench coat. I have dressed this way for a while and its not because of religion i believe in myself my god is myself and everything that i do or say is controlled by myself. and i will never believe in another man that is M.I.A. heebz ~fin~ | | | | | From: |
smeop | 2002-01-14 04:25:25 | | Subject: | miraculous mania | | Comment: | the word miracle is a rediculous term. It makes things seem like they wouldnt have happened normally. Scientifically the word miracle just replaces the word probability. things happen. and every incident has some unique circumstances that allows it come into play. some say its a miracle. why do they say this? Simple because they cannot explain the outcome. But, by simply declaring something a miracle allows all that would and could explain the events to be diminished. which is why so many ancestors have been fooled in the past. so educate and destroy miracles | | | | | From: |
nobody | 2002-01-14 19:53:50 | | Subject: | nothing | | Comment: | If there is an all powerful being that rules us allthen all I gotsta say is this. You are so wrapped up in his master plan that you will never successfully exscape his control. here is why fighting spirituality with science is illogical. God made up science , God made up math. So for you to mathematically or scientifically be able to discredit him is rediculous. Every pointand evidence that you can choose to argue his existance about is all made up by his own rules. There where not rules and guidelines that god had to follow when he created all the universe and reality. there was no math nor science before him. He first had to create them. so the only possible way for you to take over god and escape his control is to simply find a pool of nothingness jump into it and hope that you will be able to become aware of your existance and build yourself up from nothing the same way he did. Then maybe youlll be able to out think and destroy him. but if I was god I would have sealed off all the exits to nothingness. | | | | | From: |
Satan23 | 2002-02-23 18:47:57 | | Subject: | HAHAHAHHAHAHA | | Comment: | Hey you non-religious people! YOU KICK ASS! | | | | | From: |
Blake Lo | 2002-03-10 23:25:30 | | Subject: | subject | | Comment: | ok if all science is 2 prove things then what proof if there that there is no God. I beleive I have enough proof about him. Email Me if u want 2 know. anyway everything about God is science. | | | | | From: |
Blake Lo | 2002-03-10 23:30:20 | | Subject: | Miracles | | Comment: | There r miracles. U just dont hear of them. They r small 2 the world maybe. example, a bible was unharmed when everything around it was all burn and messed up(this was in the pentagon) unfortunatly, not many people heard of this cause its 'religious' | | | | | From: |
tot | 2002-04-15 20:24:01 | | Subject: | miracles | | Comment: | you know that miracles and supernatural things occur because faith is there. Hebrews11:1 says,'faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. If there is no faith then how can you expect it to happen.if you don't believe that God isn't there, then how do you expect him to reveal Himself to you? He's a gentlemen, He won't force Hiself on you. It's your choice | | | | | From: |
chris | 2002-05-13 16:19:50 | | Subject: | religion | | Comment: | there are no miracles. any example of something that someone calls a miracle merely shows the lack of understanding of the situation and the event. furthermore, there is no god. man created god in his own image because this was the extent of his imagination. we developed a belief in gods and other superstitions out of fear of not understanding the world around us but with a great desire and need to understand. religion then developed as a tool for power, for some to have power over others - as a priest or shaman who would act as a mediary for us. religion then turned into a means for social control, and finally has turned into nothing more than a business. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-06-22 21:14:14 | | Subject: | ... | | Comment: | I like the irony in being named after jesus but having become an athiest. Heres a chilling thought, if you beleive in an all-seeing god, do you realize that he sees you when you are that horrible, nasty freak that you know you are. That person that only comes out when you are alone. Thats why im an athiest... | | | | | From: |
VeryCourageous | 2002-10-16 01:53:35 | | Subject: | miracles | | Comment: | I've personally seen over 1200 miracles of healing in the last 2 years. Over 150 deaf ears opened, rock hard tumors... gone, legs grow, people not able to work... backs healed instantly. | | | | | From: |
Rod Madrigal | 2002-10-28 21:35:16 | | Subject: | miracles, or three card monty | | Comment: | That some people can claim to believe in miracles is failing to understand the natural world. There are things about the world that we still don't completely understand and may never completely understand. By looking to extend our knowledge of how things work we become more observant and increase our understanding without having to resort to childlike 'beliefs' in a supernatural being that's supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient. So much misunderstanding about this alleged being involves superstitious folk having to speak and act on behalf of this alleged being and then after burning a pile of books, buildings or people saying that it was 'God's will.'
If this alleged being were in fact around, would this being need some tenth rate mental midget to speak or act on it's behalf after supposedly creating an entire universe, multiple dimensions, and then needing a Billy Bob type with a Rush Limbaugh coffee mug to take over a Southern School board seat to 'defend' the faith against those who disagree with 'creationsim' in schools when it can't be proven and no evidence of this alleged being exists in any way, shape or form... | | | | | From: |
bobby | 2002-11-26 20:00:49 | | Subject: | views | | Comment: | I do not see how atheist can believe such ridiculous views on how humanlife came about and is going on right.
Could you sum that up for me | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-14 23:54:46 | | Subject: | Evolution is FALSE | | Comment: | For evolution to be true, it would have to show a general sign of evolutionary intelligence.
For example, our eyes would of evolved from earlier stages. And for an eye to develop, somehow evolution itself would have to know that light was even there to begin with. Is there any example in modern life today or fossils from any time in the past of an eye in an earlier stage of development?
Think about it, for an eye to evolve, the animal would have to evolve an opening for the eye before the eye even could be created, and there would be fossils from animals that would show how the eye eventually evolved by creating an ever larger hole in that section of the head. For an eye to evolve, the animal would have to evolve an opening for the eye before the eye even could be created, and how would it know that light existed and that it would need to create an eye!?
An eye is more complex than any camera in existence. No motion blur, able to see extremely well in the dark, unlike most cameras, and no motion blur for the increased exposure time it would take for us to see better in the dark like a camera. Think about it! It took us thousands of years of growing intelligence to invent a camera!!! So that would mean that evolution(or a force behind it) would have to be smarter than a society of humans at our current stage. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-14 23:55:23 | | Subject: | Evolution2 | | Comment: | Look at the ear, an ear is just as complex as an eye, and with ANY significant earlier stage of development in our ears, we wouldn't be able to hear because the bone structure that carries the sound wouldn't be as perfect as it is now, perfect enough to carry the sound waves into our inner ear. This would mean that our ears would had to of evolved with a future understanding evolution would have to know, that eventually we WOULD be able to hear if we evolved in exactly the way we did. This is impossible through evolution unless god himself made evolution.
Look at all of our senses, for them to develop, somehow life itself would need to know that these things were there to sense in the first place.
We all have a consciousness. This is what makes us see our life in a live point of view. Making decisions and feeling our emotions as they happen. Without a consciousness there would be no way of this being able to happen. Our decisions would be made for us by electronic signals in our brains without us ever feeling it as it happens because our consciousness wouldn't even exist! Science cannot explain in any way how a consciousness could exist. Only God can, because God created it. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-14 23:56:19 | | Subject: | Evolution3 | | Comment: | Think about it guys. Millions of people witnessed miracles in the name of Jesus, miracles that happened all around him at the exact time he wanted them to, and there was no technology back then that could of caused all these miracles to happen falsely from around the same person at the exact time he wanted them to, so how could it all be fake.
Did you know that most of the matter in the universe is missing? That this 'Dark Matter' cannot be found by any scientist anywhere and there is no proof that it is anywhere, except for the fact that since the universe is still expanding instead of contracting that gravity cannot be the main force involved, unless there is an extremely significant amount of matter surrounding the outer portions of the galaxy that have no properties whatsoever other than having an infinite amount of ever expanding mass, because if it wasn't expanding then the universe would be contracting now. Now how can science explain that?
I wasn't a Christian forever. I wrote a lot of this that I'm sending you before I even became a real Christian, because I knew from a logical standpoint that evolution couldn't be true. And if evolution isn't true the only thing that would make sense would be God or another strong form of supernatural existence. For example, if another race 'made' us, who made them, and so fourth?
There is an extreme amount of evidence that supports supernatural existence.
No form of logic or science can ever disprove supernatural existence or prove in any logical manner that evolution is real. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-14 23:56:40 | | Subject: | Evolution4 | | Comment: | When you look at fossils all you see is thousands of fossils that look exactly alike the others in their species. You do NOT see the changes in the bone structure that would HAVE to be there for evolution to be true. There is more evidence that we all were created from God than there will ever be that God doesn't exist or that evolution is true. | | | | | From: |
Zyrax | 2002-12-15 21:49:59 | | Subject: | Evolution | | Comment: | Regarding the above post, is it a coincidence that it is the obviously scientifically illiterate that deny evolution. In the past they denied the earth was round :) The scientific evidence proves evolution. Transitional fossils alone, which are turning up in their thousands, prove the biblical myth of creation is just that: a myth. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-15 23:52:44 | | Subject: | Evolution | | Comment: | All bark but no bite. Prove it. Prove Jesus wasn't who he said he was. Tell me how ears and eyes evolved. Tell me where I can find reliable and believable information on those fossils. Explain how people talk to god and he talks back to those who are willing to listen.
Just because you don't see the wind doesn't mean its not there. You could think the trees and grass are alive if you don't believe it. But once you open your eyes and your mind to more logical ideas then you will see it and believe it because of the evidence that proves it, but only if you open your eyes. God only shows himself to those that want to see him. If you don't believe in god then your heart and mind are closed and it blinds you from seeing the truth.
I've had my mind open to evolution for way too long, and it never has proven itself. That is exactly why they call it a theory. Not a fact. It is still a complete theory.
And that is a fact. | | | | | From: |
Zyrax | 2002-12-16 14:57:59 | | Subject: | Evolutionary Rhetoric | | Comment: | Chris, you are making no sense, raving on like a mad man about Jesus does not give me much hope that you are being objective in this debate. I doubt I could persuade a man such as you with rational logical argument, because, in my experience, people like you will just reply with the usual mindless misunderstandings like 'evolution is just a theory'. Gravity is 'only' a theory too. In science a theory can be the same thing as a fact. Meanwhile, do some research. Why are fossil species of whales being discovered that have legs? Could it be they are transitional fossils, showing the transition from land mammal to sea mammal? Please contemplate the question logically, instead of spouting emotional, knee-jerk objections that betray nothing but your lack of knowledge. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-24 16:10:54 | | Subject: | Evolution is false-more reasons-1 | | Comment: | I think the truth is that you are scared that I am making sense. If you want to prove your point then tell me how the ears and eyes evolved, for example.
Instead of proving your points with any proof and logical means, you personally attack me and my intelligence. Not very nice. Here, I am providing logical proof:
For evolution to be true, there would have to be billions of transitional fossils found all over the world in the past hundreds of years as well as today, not only a handful of questionable transitions here and there.
If a reptile’s leg evolved into a bird’s wing, wouldn’t it become a bad leg long before it became a good wing?
In the earliest part of the fossil record (generally the lowest sedimentary layers of Cambrian rock), life appears suddenly, full-blown, complex, diversified, and dispersed worldwide. Few people realize that many more phyla are found in the Cambrian than exist today. Complex species, such as fish, worms, corals, trilobites, jellyfish, sponges, mollusks, and brachiopods appear suddenly, with no sign anywhere on earth of gradual development from simpler forms. These layers contain representatives of all today’s plant and animal phyla, including flowering plants, vascular plants, and vertebrates (animals with backbones). Insects, a class comprising four-fifths of all known animals (living and extinct), have no evolutionary ancestors. The fossil record does not support evolution. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-24 16:11:27 | | Subject: | Evolution is false-more reasons-2 | | Comment: | If, despite virtually impossible odds, proteins arose by chance processes, there is not the remotest reason to believe they could ever form a membrane-encased, self-reproducing, self-repairing, metabolizing, living cell. There is no evidence that any stable states exist between the assumed naturalistic formation of proteins and the formation of the first living cells. No scientist has ever demonstrated that this fantastic jump in complexity could have happened, even if the entire universe had been filled with proteins.
What evidence is there that information, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble itself? What about the 4,000 books of coded information that are in a tiny part of each of your 100 trillion cells? If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. Why then doesn’t the vast information sequence in the DNA molecule of just a bacteria also imply an intelligent source?
Which came first, DNA or the proteins needed by DNA, which can only be produced by DNA?
How could sexual reproduction evolve? How could immune systems evolve?
If the solar system evolved, why do three planets spin backwards? Why do at least eight moons revolve backwards?
All planets should spin in the same direction, but Venus, Uranus, and Pluto rotate backwards. All 91 moons in the solar system should orbit their planets in the same sense, but at least eight have backward orbits. Furthermore, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune have moons orbiting in both directions. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-24 16:12:42 | | Subject: | Evolution is false-more reasons-3 | | Comment: | Can you name one reasonable hypothesis on how the moon got there, any hypothesis that is consistent with all the data? Why aren’t students told the scientific reasons for rejecting all the evolutionary theories for the moon’s origin? What about the other 90+ moons in the solar system?
No scientific theory exists to explain the origin of space, time, or matter. Because each is intimately related to or even defined in terms of the other, a satisfactory explanation for the origin of one must also explain the origin of the others. Naturalistic explanations have completely failed.
The amount of helium in the universe is not explained by the big bang theory; the theory was adjusted to fit the amount of helium. Ironically, the lack of helium in certain types of stars (B type stars) and the presence of boron and beryllium in *older* stars contradicts the big bang theory.
A big bang should not produce highly concentrated or rotating bodies. Most of them quite flat shaped. Galaxies are examples of both. Nor would any type of big bang yet considered produce galaxies with the spacings among them that are actually observed. Also, a large volume of the universe should not be, but apparently is, moving sideways, almost perpendicular to the direction of expansion.
A big bang would, for all practical purposes, produce only hydrogen and helium. Therefore, the first generation of stars to somehow form after a big bang should consist of only hydrogen and helium. Some of these stars should still exist, but none can be found. These observations make it doubtful a big bang occurred. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-24 16:13:32 | | Subject: | Evolution is false-more reasons-4 | | Comment: | If a big bang occurred, what caused the bang? Stars with enough mass become black holes, so not even light can escape their enormous gravity. How then could anything escape trillions upon trillions of times greater gravity caused by concentrating all the universe’s mass in a 'cosmic egg' that existed before a big bang?
If the big bang theory is correct, one can calculate the age of the universe. This age turns out to be younger than objects in the universe whose ages were based on other evolutionary theories. Because this is logically impossible, one or both sets of theories must be incorrect.
Coral growth rates were for many years thought to be very slow, implying some coral reefs must be hundreds of thousands of years old. More accurate measurements of these rates under favorable growth conditions now show that no known coral formation need be older than 3,400 years. A similar comment can be made for growth rates of stalactites and stalagmites in caves
Water from an underground spring was channeled to a spot on a river bank for only one year. In that time, limestone built up around sticks lying on the bank. Limestone deposits can form rapidly if the ground water’s chemistry is favorable. Just because stalactites and stalagmites are growing slowly today does not mean they must be millions of years old. Conditions after the flood provided the ideal chemistry for rapidly forming such features.
Why are living bacteria found inside rocks that you say are hundreds of millions of years old and in meteorites that you say are billions of years old? Clean-room techniques and great care were used to rule out contamination. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-24 16:14:48 | | Subject: | Evolution is false-more reasons-5 | | Comment: | One product of radioactive decay within rocks is helium, a light gas. Helium then enters the atmosphere at a much faster rate than it escapes. Radioactive decay of *only* uranium and thorium would produce all the atmosphere’s helium in only 40,000 years. No known means exists by which large amounts of helium can escape from Earth’s gravity, even when considering helium’s low atomic weight. The atmosphere appears to be young.
Lead diffuses (or leaks) from zircon crystals at known rates that increase with temperature. Because these crystals are found at different depths in the Earth, those at greater depths and temperatures should have less lead. If the Earth’s crust is just a fraction of the age claimed by evolutionists, measurable differences in the lead content of zircons should exist throughout the top 4,000 meters. Instead, no measurable difference is found. Similar conclusions are reached based on the helium content in these same zircon crystals. These helium studies indicate that the Earth’s crust is less than 10,000 years old.
Why do so many ancient cultures have flood legends?
Okay, thats all the evidence I can gather to fight fictional theories like evolution in one day.
If this isn't being objective with a rational logical argument, with a good amount of fact based knowledge, then what is?
If you want to dispute any number of these points I make, I have pages upon pages of material to back them up. | | | | | From: |
Chris | 2002-12-24 16:17:47 | | Subject: | No applause necessary. | | Comment: | Now, with all these facts, I think this proves that you guys are the ones who are scientifically illiterate. | | | | | From: |
ReasonsVoice | 2003-02-21 14:49:30 | | Subject: | clarity | | Comment: | 'Miracle' something unusual that cannot be explained with the facts available.
'natural' that which occurs in nature and is subject to the laws thereof
'supernatural' that which is not subject to natural law
'science' a method of human understanding based on observation and extropolation founded on the assumption that there are discernable natural laws. Essential emotional basis: curiosity.
'religion' a method of human understanding based on tradition and extropolaton founded on the assumption that essentially humans can't figure things out and should shut up and pray. Essential emotional basis: fear.
'athiest' an emotionally wounded Christian desperately seeking to be prooved wrong so that he/she may enter into a state of grace with a diety that their reasoning minds know is ridiculous.
'free thinker' kind of guy that would write all of this. | | | | | From: |
Regi | 2003-07-27 19:59:56 | | Subject: | athiest | | Comment: | It is said that god loves everyone,yet he will allow most of them to go to hell.In order to go to heaven you have to be 'saved' but is anyone really saved? | | | | | From: |
Deist | 2003-12-18 02:16:06 | | Subject: | Why | | Comment: | Why does everybody make a big deal about how Christ died for us? Is there a difference if he died from Old Age, Cancer, or on a Cross? Well I guess it makes it seem so dramatic of a person dying on a cross that we must perceive him as a hero, would we still prays him if he died from old-age? Its funny how there was no record kept by the Romans that a man named Jesus even died on the cross, and they did keep extensive records at that time. Its funny that in a very literate time, not one writer mentioned the name Jesus.
'Yes I have been sent so I can die for everyone.' | | | | | From: |
john | 2004-01-17 19:21:05 | | Subject: | maricle | | Comment: | If there was life after death one of my ancestors would let me know. Believing in god is the miracle. Who can put their head up their bottom that far and live to tell others.
john | | | | | From: |
samantha | 2004-02-03 15:28:43 | | Subject: | miracles | | Comment: | i have read your arguement for and against religion and the beliefs in miracles. i have a question to ask all those who are 'believers' who created god/where did the creator come from etc | | | | | From: |
Godsmartian | 2004-02-20 08:32:18 | | Subject: | miracles | | Comment: | It was said that science can explain things. That is true God gave us the brains and intelligence to learn and explorer to better understand the world we live. But Science can not explain everything. I know there are a lot of people who will say that science can. But it cannot. We then does science not explain love? Science cannot explain the love a mother has for her children. And science can not explain why a mother would not love her children. Of course science will give a lot of reasons for why a mother would not love her children, bad childhood, abuse, or something wrong inside her body. But science can not prove it. Because emotions isn't something you can cut up and experiment. You talked about the cancer in the Grandmother just leaving. I have never heard of cancer just leaving. Of course it does go into remission but never have I heard of it leaving. In all of the people that I know that have had cancer none of them ahd the cancer to just leave. Why the must suffer and I don't I don't know. It is God's will and his way. Many think that God is just sitting up on his throne enjoying our suffering. When we suffer he also suffers. Many people can not believe this because they never knew the love of a father. BUt we are just humans our knowledge and understanding are very limtited so we could not understand why things happen. But I know that God is in work in our lives. I have heard people talking about that if God cared then this wouldn't have happened. I know that my dad (who I never really knew) was diognosed with empyhsema. | | | | | From: |
Godsmartian | 2004-02-20 08:33:07 | | Subject: | miracles | | Comment: | I cried and got angry at God. Asking why he would let this happen. but it was my dad's fault that he got sick. He didn't take care of himself. So for his neglegence he got very sick. It's man's fault that some bad things happen. It is God's grace and will that we get out of it. Now if something happens to someone that is beyond their control for instance cancer. No one can predict it. NO one can control it even though we try. Why I don't know, but why don't you try asking God himself instead of questioning him? And then instead of being convinced that he won't answer look for the answer be aware that God will answer. Because God always does. His love for mankind is beyond comprhension. | | | | | From: |
Louie | 2004-03-03 18:02:54 | | Subject: | Miracles from prayer (1) | | Comment: | People can say that cancer remission isn't a miracle, it could just be a good amune system or some luck. If you go from having cancer cells in your body to having none, then how can that be explained as just a random chance, and if this happens within 3 days of being prayed over, then whats more probable now? I was witness to someone who had cancer in his Limp Nodes, they were swelled up, he would randomly faint, but three days after being prayed for doctors couldn't find any trace of the cancer.
I was also witness to a man who needed a liver transplant. He was on his death bed turning yellow, he was prayed over and he lived, without the transplant.
You could say I'm lying or i was deceived but if you look at the medical reports what then, the doctors are lying or being decieved? But again there's always the probability that the liver just randomly got better. | | | | | From: |
Louie | 2004-03-03 18:03:42 | | Subject: | Miracles from prayer (2) | | Comment: | Someone could say well why doesn't God heal me or answer my prayers when my relative or friend was dying. I say Faith is hte reason. If you cry and beg God for something your probably not going to get it. The whole world asks God for things all the time. God acts on peoples faith. When Jesus cursed a fig tree in the bible and a day later it was rotted from the roots he didn't ask his Father he spoke directly to the tree.
Matt: 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Acts: 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
People might say 'How can you beleive something 100%, so that it happens when you pray for it.' There's always going to be a struggle in your mind, but you don't have faith in yoru mind you have it in your heart or spirit. If your a Christian and your born again then you have God's spirit inside of you. If you feed your spirit with the word of God and pray in tongues (language the mind can't comprehend) then your prayers will be answered and you will see miracles.
If miracles are a rarety who's fault is it? (Your fault, sorry). It all starts with faith, if you beleive in God do some studying on faith. | | | | | From: |
Steve | 2004-03-10 22:22:44 | | Subject: | God's existance | | Comment: | The existance of God is very obvious in the existance of man's ability to choose. Choice is not an affect like averything that happens in science. Choice is beyond affect and therefore breaks the laws of nature all together and the only way for this to be if it was a power granted to us by a highter power than nature and oursevlves.
miracles happen everyday from miricles of healing, to material miricles, to spiritual miricles. These miricles have been studied time and time again and are so clearly pointing to God, such as Our Lady of Guadalupe. She came and talked to this guy for a while and behind her grew roses these roses were native to spain but they were growing in the middle of winter in mexico. He took the roses as proof brought them to the priest and when he gave them to the priest, the cloak he put the roses on displayed the image of Mary. The picture is still intact after 400 years when the material for the cloak should only last for mabye ten. and the color from the picture was studied by scientist and it is floating above the cloak. It is not in the fibers. Also in the background of mary there are stars that are placed in the exact same place that they would be when mary talked to that guy, same date and all.
Also there r the miracles of the uncorruptibles. People who have been dead for hundreds of years and they haven't decayed. Like this girl in Porugal died 500 years ago and she still has rosy cheeks, nails and brown hair. | | | | | From: |
Holy Messenger | 2004-06-03 17:01:35 | | Subject: | you athiest fools! | | Comment: | How can one say there is no God? That is the same as saying 'my life has no purpose'. Without God life is nothing! Jesus Christ died so that we could face the almighty God in the end (with all of our sins) and be forgiven and enter eternal life! My faith is not is scientist! Why have faith in mere humans, when there is a God that is very much alive, and has a love and power in which HUMANS cannot even concieve. You athiest can have scientist to back you up at the gate of hell. But I will have the divine creator. | | | | | From: |
martin | 2004-08-12 06:33:12 | | Subject: | miracles | | Comment: | When a blind man who is blind his whole life is touched and told to see and he does see, that satisifies my understanding of what a miracle would be. Not that it couldn't be also understood within the realms of quantum physics. | | | | | From: |
martin | 2004-08-12 06:37:43 | | Subject: | God | | Comment: | If God ('I am') doesn't exist then how am I? | | | | | From: |
Bilbo Baggins | 2004-08-20 05:49:08 | | Subject: | Miracles | | Comment: | The absence of miracles does not prove the non-existence of a god. The presence of miracles does not prove the existence of a god. | | | | | From: |
Jessica Richards | 2004-08-20 06:10:56 | | Subject: | 'Miracles' | | Comment: | that depends on how you define the word 'Miracle' bilbo. if you define it as an act of providence. then the 'absence' of miracles could be evidence that there is no god. if you define it as something else then you should call it something else because miracle is defined as ' something that cannot be explained using the laws of nature, so is assumed to be supernatural, or an act of God.' and vice verse with the last part of your comment, if there are miracles then that would be evidence that there is a god. | | | | | From: |
Bilbo Baggins | 2004-08-20 07:02:14 | | Subject: | Miracles proof and evidence | | Comment: | I see your point Jessica, and it would be a good one if I were writing about 'Evidence: A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgement.' However I wrote the above statement using the word 'Prove: To verify.'
In fact the absence of miracles, or should I say the absence of miracles in the world as we know it, does not prove there is no god, for a non participating god could exist as a miracle in itself, 'a miracle in itself' in the sense that a miracle is defined, as you pointed out so vigilant in using semantics, something ' that cannot be explained by the laws of nature.' Perhaps there is a god or gods that made the laws of nature ( for they would have in the process made nature itself ) , intentionally or unintentionally, unable of proving it's or their existence. Just as, oh, let's say, we eventually create A.I. and let's say we create them to evolve in mind and body just as we do. We seclude them from ever being able to see us in an entirely synthetic and natural world. Eventually they might (given the proper resources in the first) reach the same point of scientific knowledge that we have today about what the fundamental make up of the universe and everything in it is, however any theory they have about how they came into being or anything surrounding them( nature to them) as they and it would be in their present time, would disclude the possibility of creation. Does that mean that we never created them? Because they would certainly think so. | | | | | From: |
Bilbo Baggins | 2004-08-20 07:19:49 | | Subject: | Miracles | | Comment: | Like so the presence of miracles would not prove that there was a god. (since we have already verified the meaning of the word 'prove', I won't define it again.') Let us go back to the example of the A.I. ( if it could even be called such, for their intelligence would be so high it could hardly be called 'artificial' or 'fake' atleast they would never refer to themselves as that ) Let us say that in this world we create for them there are things they cannot explain using their known Laws of Nature. So many of these A.I. call these 'things' something similair to our word for such 'things', miracles. However, although, they truly think they are very close to knowing everything they really know only about '1/billionth of 1/millionth about anything.' These things they cannot explain are not necessarily acts of god or gods. Simply, they are in essence, things they cannot explain yet. Perhaps humans are as artificially intelligent to a god or gods as our 'A.I' would be to us. | | | | | From: |
amber | 2004-09-16 18:24:47 | | Subject: | y do i feel this way | | Comment: | how do i know he;s there? how can i love someone so much without seeing him or hearing him physically? the answers quite simple...He's there when u notice little things that He did for you. He speaks to you when you do something good, it is He who makes u proud of what u've done. Its him who puts in your head ' i did a good job'. I've had too many miracles ( little and big) to type...its a waste of my fingers energy for those who are going to laugh and judge me..theres nothing i can do but mourn for the left-behind..i do mourn for you and think about you every day..but nevermore than i think about my Father and Brother.. | | | | | From: |
Jack | 2005-07-05 04:09:13 | | Subject: | Atheism | | Comment: | I would like some feedback to my queries, assuming they make sense at all! Some may accuse me of sitting on the fence, yet I look at both sides of the argument and they simply do not warrant my support. I see the argument FOR religion as stubborn and frustrating as the answer for many people to justify their views is 'because god said so', 'there is no proof that god does not exist' or 'science cannot explain it so the only conclusion is it was God's doing'. To me this shows how the belief in religion can blind people's views, plus personal case studies including christian and Muslim friends show bewildering hypocracy, (blissful)ignorance of other beliefs and ideas, in fact in many circumstances ignorance of the real world and their OWN religion. On the other hand although I see science as a more logical way of explaining the world it cannot explain everything. Plus, its reasoning is often so complex that only a select few academics with knowledge of such brevity spanning the many fields of science actually make sense of the answers they uncover. I see people argue for and against religion or a god yet every argument can be countered or twisted to suit anybody's needs. The answer can only be found by arranging an argument between an ultimate religious 'master' (possibly a GOD) and a scientist who's knowledge is so vast it can transcend across all the scientific fields fully. This is impossible, so who can blame me if I feel that keeping my views open to be better than compromising by choosing between the two. | | | | | From: |
Jack | 2005-07-05 04:12:05 | | Subject: | Atheism | | Comment: | Furthermore, on a cosmic note, upon seeing arguments such as 'if life came from tiny cells from meteors what created them and so on and so on' or the other countless arguments of the origins of life on our planets, as well as the classic 'what was before the big bang'. I ask isn't religion being a little too defensive as after all science in its form of actively challenging religion has only developed en mass during the last 100 or 50 years. Compared to the thousands of years religion has had to simplify things that could not be explained all those years ago such as evolution and 'Adam and Eve'. If I was a bronze age inhabitant I would be horrifird to find that due to research into dna and humanoid bones over the years we had developed from an ape like creature who in its wisdom spouted of into different human sub-species. With our very own homo-sapian ruling supreme over its lesser 'neanderthol' (excuse the spelling) cousins. No wonder the story of adam and eve seemed so RIGHT. Similarly 'so called miracles' to me appear to be spin offs of this simplifying 'fad'. I see it as irrational to dismiss science's short comings as can you possibly believe that with the rate of scientific advancement at what it is more and more of these unanswered questions can be ansered, whether in the next 10 years or next 10000 years! As you may have guessed I side more with science than religion, yet I do believe (or want to believe) their is a force or something that enables us to live on after death, yet my opinion has no logic and is more hope than a faith in an after life. | | | | | From: |
Jack | 2005-07-05 04:13:16 | | Subject: | Atheism | | Comment: | To me religion segregates people, as how can the christians be correct that there is a god and his son jesus, adament that they are right while Islam, which has a larger following, believe they are right also. The reason why I do not support religion is because it proposes so many contradictions and questions. If there is a god then why does he/her not 'enlighten' other religions into accepting his/her correct religion? What becomes of these other people's souls that believe christianity is wrong, even evil? Through no fault of their own young children who have seemingly been indoctrinated by the wrong religion appear to be punished by god, as they do not have the chance to be shown 'the way'! Rediculous! | | | | | From: |
jack | 2005-07-05 04:14:38 | | Subject: | Atheism | | Comment: | In addition my own findings from friends show a startling ignorance. While my christian friend was sure that christianity was proper and still relevent to the modern world I raised the question of racial tolerance. To my astonishment upon my mentioning that the ku klux klan and many of its racsist supporters were in fact bible bashing christians he stringently disagreed, exclaiming that they could not possibly be christians due to this! He could not comprehend what I was telling him, like he was on a different planet, saying he then did not believe that any of these people could possibly be christian due to it not saying that blacks were inferior to whites within the bible. Yet, on further questioning he did relent by admitting (unknown to me at the time) Abrahim (this is his own words) cast his evil or bad son into Africa and his good son into Europe. Please correct me if this info is wrong (i hope it is) No wonder this was twisted to suit racsist attitudes, but my friend (who is not rascist)was oblivious to these potential consequenses (unreal! I know). Furthermore, many christians I know are oblivious to other cultures or religions of the world, prefering to put ultimate faith in christianity, while completely ignoring other religions such as islam which, whether people like it or not, are closely related. I simply could not respect my friends pure biased stand point, yet I am not saying all christians or indeed muslims etc are hypocrites or ignorant. There are plethoras of other arguments I could have mentioned but in the end I am sure they will all be countered by somebody else. | | | | | From: |
mobius | 2005-10-10 19:17:39 | | Subject: | this is stupid | | Comment: | what is it you guys are talking about. half of the posts on this site are jibberish. you all want to talk about philosophy, formal philosophy, then lets see a forum for value theory, second order modal logic, theory of types, actualism, anything of any actual importance to acedemic philosophy. Do not delude yourselves, sure you can say if i believe hard enough it is true, but surely then you should have no problem stepping out in front of a bus. All this transmigration is bullcrap, peddle this quasi-religion, i mean buddhism, elsewhere. No one wants to here that they dont exist, its absurd. And no one wants to hear, 'I can not know anything.' because you have to know that in order to even sound cohesive. What about ... this sentence is false. So this sentence modally can be formalized as, hmmmm: if it is obligatory that it is either possible or neccessarily false and that it is either possible or neccessarily true, then it is neccessarily possible that it is true and false. What the hell, ITS BOTH????!!!!! | | | | | From: |
MOBIUS | 2005-10-10 19:28:30 | | Subject: | all of this god crap | | Comment: | so please I beg of you prove that god exists conclusively, and in the same light prove that god doesnt exist conclusively. 'God exists' - wheres the foundation, clear and distinct intuitions LOL come over here and let me smack you upside the head. 'God doesn't exist' - again wheres the foundation, evidense!!!!???? so evidense is used to prove the superiority of science, but in order for evidense to be even considered useful we must first accept science. Is it just me or is this fucking circular .... just like everything else.
so whats the answere, ahhhh I dont know, neither do you.
Anyone read and Kierk. here?
'Prove that you exist,' says man
'I will not prove that I exist. For proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing,' says God
'But isnt the Babel fish a dead give away,' says man,' It proves you exist, therefor you do not. QED'
God with a note of concern on his face says, 'I hadn't thought of that,'
and promptly vanishes into a puff of logic.
And for an encore man proves that black is white, and gets killed at the next zebra crossing.
Im spent | | | | | From: |
mobius | 2005-10-10 23:06:32 | | Subject: | liars paradox cont | | Comment: | I cant belief you only allow 1700 characters per post, you know how much shit I had to cut out. fucking bastards.
liars paradox cont.
'This sentence is false'
So what does this sentence say ..... that the sentence is false, but mustn't the sentence be true in order for it to be false. Am I not biting my own tail here. The snake eating its tail is called an oroboro, its a greek symbol and concept.
How about: 'I can not know anything'
Well dont you know something then?
bahhh Karl Marx once wrote 'Philosophy is to the real world as masturbation is to sex'. 'This sentence is false'. Which sentence again? the 'there is no solution' or the 'this sentence is false' what exactly does its meaning refer to. or why even care, how often does this come up in normal conversation. Do I just walk up to random people and say this is a lie. No Im not crasy, and i know that in order for it to make sense i must show further what I 'this' actually is. The sentence is not useful in and of itself, just another ridiculous example of the pitfalls of self-reference. The useful sentence does not refer to itself it refers to something else. Its like the whole homological vs heterological debate, its a declarative sentence. it declare that this is or is the case, not this is the case of the case. and doesnt all of this just assume there are univeral predicates like 'is true' or 'is false'? | | | | | From: |
galaxydivide | 2006-01-02 10:08:41 | | Subject: | possessed | | Comment: | I find a sort of madness brewing in my head and war is being fought for the control of my soul.I'm going mad yet sane.I want to murder yet cry for the murderer.I have built a cage for my demons years ago when an event sucked them into my being and that cage is rusting apart.The screams are to loud.Yet curiously...I can't seem to kill myself.I have tried on several occassions to no avail....I should have died and didn't.I am being kept alive for some reason....good or evil.It's a game with the devil and God...An honest to God Damn game.I don't want to play but have no choice.Evil is winning yet I feel an overwhelming sense of hope.Fear.Rage.Sadness....advice? | | | | | From: |
Oleg (19)---Kogi? | 2006-05-28 10:08:50 | | Subject: | Wow ---- here is my view on God. | | Comment: | After reading all this to get to the bottom I still am in confusion over God. I always viewed spirituality as something that is personally experienced by your mind and some 'higher being?'. To me, religion is an art of 'looking at yourself'. Its a way man gives value to himself. Religion is a way of socializing with your enviroment. Of course you make God in your own image. Its more 'man-related?'. We see how the 'monkey gods' disappeared over time as science showed us that we are all animals. -GOD- =this one word is rooted in your minds with so many ideas. Emotions swell up as soon as someone says it. Its hard for me to explain wat im trying to say (iam better as an artist) here. By saying this one word your unconsciousness kicks in and takes over consciousness. Some christian once asked me what happened before I was born. And I thought to myself that's gotta be one stupid question. Of course I have no proof. All i can do is to believe what 'older' people tell me, or form my own theories. One way for me to do that is to study patterns. All of us learned in schools that if we figured out a pattern to a problem we might know the result. So thats exactly what everyone is doing. We might not know all the factors that are affecting the problem, but slowly we find one by one just like a puzzle. We study the past by using the present to enhance the feature. this is just one big problem, and we are all part of it. I see how fields like psychology, archeology, and many more just chip away at our old concept of the meaning of life. You can pretty much link the word faith with psychology these days. And the way i see it, I see that 'religions' and science will merge at some point in history. | | | | | From: |
Some_guy | 2006-07-27 07:20:30 | | Subject: | things that go nowhere | | Comment: | That should pretty much sum up this entire ridiculous chat text. Using 'logic' to prove miracles is pretty much like playing basketball and trying to get less STRIKEOUTS then the opposite team. Miracles ARE illogical thats why they are MIRACLES because no one on earth can explain them. (someone who is suppose to die of cancer in 4 months ends up being cured and lives for 12 yrs would be ILLOGICAL to the Doctor who has spent the last 5 yrs treating them). Faith attests to miracles just as logic attests to scientific explanation. This argument is best described as 2 knights jousting, riding away from eachother (pretty ILLOGICAL dont you think). | | | | | From: |
pieguy | 2006-10-28 14:30:37 | | Subject: | twt | | Comment: | your all freaks | | | | | From: |
Anthropithicus | 2006-11-28 20:38:07 | | Subject: | Much if nothing about ado! | | Comment: | >> what is the point of intelligence if the outcome is irrelevant? <<
My card; I was born an Atheist and I'm a Humanist by choice.
Lifes' outcome is not irrelevant as Reality holds a legacy that so far eludes the thinking mind.
Science and religion are not compatible. One draws its existence from suppersitions, while the other one owes its existence to facts.
AS for irrelevant, there is nothing irrelevant about immortality. Or even, time travel. Its all in the 'Good Equation'. Not 'Gods'' Equation but the Good Equation.
Remember, my calling card. And I can prove what I say.
Rsp. Anthropithicus | | | | | From: |
confusedOFreality | 2006-12-12 00:46:48 | | Subject: | miracle | | Comment: | well if you all are saying miracles dont exist then please explain why this summer i was victim of a rape attempt i prayed as the guy forcefully grabbed at me..suddenly my best friend came out of no where..the guy left me alone and acted as if nothing happend..i beleive it to be miracle that my friend jus showed up out of no where..dont you? if this isnt a miracle then plz explain to me what it is..i would like to kno | | | | | From: |
James | 2007-08-07 01:15:04 | | Subject: | Interested in Seeing Non Based Disc. | | Comment: | This is unfortunate but I think this site would be more interesting if it was not so biased and was more straight forward forum. If anyone else agrees please let me know. I like anyone else wants to see the Theist revealed for is unclamored fault in thought and logic and reason. But how are we to do this effective if the playing field is not leveed. Words like PIOSPRIEST though might be witty if sorts lends itseld to unintellegent and bantar and drival. Not well thought out discussions. | | | | | From: |
Hartley | 2007-12-24 05:57:01 | | Subject: | ????? | | Comment: | There is such weak logic and understanding displayed in the thiests the athiests the agnostic...etc. on this page. Closed minded theists not willing to exept they dont know crap about what they believe, and athiest drawing the line of rationality discarding the shear possibility of beauty. Kindergarten arguement, and will never be won. Btw. I am not religious, i hate religion but follow Jesus Christ's teachings and have a close relationship with him but I still see the holes in most people's realities around me. | | | | | From: |
lizzy | 2008-02-22 03:25:50 | | Subject: | God's logic | | Comment: | I just wanted to express a vew that one of my theology teachers showed me that made complete sense and totally clicked in my head. its a chart as to why believing and following God is logical. sorry if its a little forward. im just trying to get a point across
If you don't believe in God:
He exists: you go to hell
He doesn't exist: nothing happens
If you do believe in God:
He exists: you go to heaven
He doesn't exist: nothing happens
This made total sense to me and when you think about it, God is the easiet and most logical choice. Nothing that follows the teaching of the Church leads anyone to do anything bad. The morality of the Church keeps everyone happy if it is followed exactly. The happiest people i have ever met have been very devout Christian. I of course admit that no one is perfect. i know that i am far from it. but I have found myself happier ever since i truly started to follow God's way. | | | | | From: |
lizzy | 2008-02-22 03:31:13 | | Subject: | God's creation | | Comment: | i want to clear up a common misconception that is made in the creation of the earth. nowhere does it say that the world was made in 7 days by the definition that we now define days. a day could have meant millions of years, we don't know exactly what was meant, but there is no hard proof that anyone ever meant one day as in 24 hours. | | | |
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