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dylanzen:
he who guards the truth, guards dust and air
Russ:
JGR and several other "atheists" here don't
necessarily attack Christian belief, they attack
ignorance
FytinFrank:
with a special emphasis on pig ignorance
eadon-com:
Christians are far more likely to be ignorant
than most
WarPriest:
I'm sure eadon's commissioned a study
Russ:
Well, the "atheist" don't provide an alternative
for ignorant people.
eadon-com:
well atheists do offer evolution as an antidote
to ignorant creationism
Russ:
LOL, but the ignorant can't understand evolution,
they're ignorant
eadon-com:
yes, but christians peddling creationism doesn't
exactly help matters
Russ:
Are you asking them to believe evolution on
faith?
eadon-com:
if I were to have faith in anything then it
would be science. The reason is that science
is rooted in evidence, not hot air
Russ:
"Faith in Science" is an oxymoron, isn't it?
dlh:
but eadon, science does not tell us what kind
of ethical spiritual life to lead
eadon-com:
true dlh
WarPriest:
you have to have faith in science as well as
religion
Russ:
Yes, eadon, a very vexing question.
eadon-com:
not so true WarPriest. science is rooted in
evidence. religion isn't.
FytinFrank:
and you need faith in your underwear
dlh:
one must enter the Cloud Of Forgetfulness to
get to the Cloud Of Unknowing, or something
like that
FytinFrank:
your underwear, while it must be elastic, should
also be solidly sewn
Russ:
Someone asked what "Moral Code" is provided
by Science?>
eadon-com:
If you wanted to study science you could find
out the evidence behind the science. You could
have faith, knowing that if you investigated
deeper you would find logic and evidence
WarPriest:
ugh eadon, are you going to try to make an empirical
argument for science (which is based on empiricism)?
A little circular, eh?
FytinFrank:
<goes after WarPriest with an 18 volt cordless
circular saw>
eadon-com:
science doesn't tell you how to live. So what?
Do I need a god to tell me not to kill people?
dylanzen:
reason tells you, you hurt someone else, you
hurt yourself
dlh:
no eadon, but you do choose certain ethical
beliefs
WarPriest:
well, eadon, without a God who commands a just
life I see no reason why someone would not kill
another (if it was to their benefit)
Russ:
Well, evolution would teach that murder is a
good thing. Male Lions constantly kill the off-spring
of their completion. The better a Lion is at
killing these off-spring, the better chance
his genes will be passed on.
FytinFrank:
if he ain't Lion, he's dyin', eh?
eadon-com:
well WarPriest, do you see science professors
killing people?
WarPriest:
many of the most materially successful people
in history have been among the most cruellest
FytinFrank:
like Bill Gates?
dlh:
then they could not get tenure eadon
WarPriest:
eadon, that is a ridiculous argument
dlh:
science, in and of itself, has no qualms about
experiments on people
dylanzen:
from a purely ego based standpoint, humans are
better off having friends rather than enemies
eadon-com:
WarPriest, why is it that you think that you
need a god to lead a moral life?
JGR:
There is faith involved in science I guess WarPriest.
However, scientific theories and facts can be
tested and observed. I think that it one ups
religion in that regard. Religion goes through
a rather personal unique test.
WarPriest:
well JGR, I guess it all depends on whether
you put more faith in the categorization of
sensory perceptions which seem to be observable
by others or in a deeply personal experience
JGR:
WarPriest, that "deeply personal experience"
is different from person to person and religion
to religion.
WarPriest:
yeah JGR, but so what, you can only know of
your own experiences, the experiences of anything
by another person can't be tested by you directly,
only indirectly
JGR:
Also, If you think that you will just "do whatever
you want" if you believed there was no god WarPriest
than perhaps you need religion. However, it
is not the same way for everybody.
dlh:
the nazis took science and warped it around
their murderous ethical system. A little doctor
mengele eh?
eadon-com:
dlh science is neutral. there is no good and
no bad science. Only good and bad people
Russ:
Do we install an "Intellectual Elitism" based
on science?
WarPriest:
well, if there is no god and hence no objective
morality, I would say that you might as well
do whatever gives you pleasure, whatever that
may be
dlh:
true eadon, but you agree that science does
not have all the answers. dlh says all of that
from a perspective that denies fairy tale gods
too.
eadon-com:
On the whole science improves peoples lives.
Look at medicine technology for example
Russ:
LOL eadon, yea, and nuclear waste, population,
George W Bush
eadon-com:
OK guys, if you don't
like science, throw away your computers and
live in a mud hut and pray to god.
Russ:
Science is GREAT for what it's good at, explaining
the physical world around us. But it falls short
in areas it isn't very good (duh)
dlh:
I am making the point that you can be spiritual,
and scientific, all without believing in supernatural
deities. Millions of Buddhists are spiritual
and they don't believe in supernatural deities
eadon-com:
so spiritualism means that you do what???
eadon-com:
WarPriest, why is it that you think that you
need a god to lead a moral life?
WarPriest:
well eadon, I would define the moral life objectively...get
rid of the God and where's the objectivity
eadon-com:
we have evolved to be moral WarPriest. If humans
were not moral they would not cooperate and
die out
WarPriest:
define moral for me eadon. You use the word
a lot but I'm not sure what you mean by it at
all
dlh:
spiritualism can be very different from just
being spiritual. spiritualism carries with it
the idea of supernaturalism, agreed, but supernatural
does not necessarily
eadon-com:
Moral is hard to define. Let us say that if
you are moral you are nice to people and are
WarPriest:
lol eadon. That gets us nowhere
dlh:
define words by their context, visavis Wittgenstein
Russ:
spiritualism deals with matter not of the physical.
If you don't acknowledge this, then you live
a dull life.
WarPriest:
well JGR, you have been brought up in a culture
shaped by religious values, your owes a debt
to christianity whether you wish to acknowledge
it or not
JGR:
I would agree to a point WarPriest but man survived
before christianity ever popped up and he may
well survive if it disappears. I don't see it
as the source of all morality. Some morality
is built in and other ethical concerns are unique
to individuals.
eadon-com:
well I don't believe in a god and I don't wish
to harm people. how do you explain that WarPriest???
Russ:
JGR is only half right, ALL morality is built
in.
eadon-com:
Without the supernatural, what qualifies one
as being spiritual?
dlh:
spiritualism gets into spirits and the occult
WarPriest:
well eadon you were brought up in a western
culture, you accepted "thou shalt not kill"
but rejected "I am the lord thy God"
WarPriest:
but JGR, before christianity there were other
religions too
dlh:
look inward young grasshoppa eadon
WarPriest:
I am not sure that any morality is built in
eadon-com:
Yes dlh, you are at a loss aren't you :)
dlh:
that is part of learning eadon :)
eadon-com:
Hehehe. dlh you are a zen dude indeed :)
dlh:
like I said, study Buddhism, you will find tons
of spiritual people who don't believe in the
supernatural
RevFred:
perfect moral is transcendent - We can only
reach toward it.
Russ:
The archaeologists tell us man has been tribal
for millions of years, is that an "evolutionary"
time scale?
JGR:
Evil, you are assuming too much. You assume
that we all accept and follow the ten commandments
until we "reject". How is it that you can't
imagine someone who never believed the bible
or christianity that lives a normal life?
WarPriest:
well JGR, the thing is, most people were brought
up by those who were religious or by those brought
up by those who were religious. besides that,
religion imposes many social pressures even
on those who don't accept it...I don't really
know old cultures that got rid of religion to
a large extent except for communism. Communist
ones and they didn't turn out too well
dlh:
the zen commandments?
eadon-com:
so WarPriest your whole argument is based on
the assumption that religions that existed before
christianity were moral? That is skating on
thin ice
Russ:
"All life is suffering"
dlh:
the first noble truth Russ
Russ:
"Suffering is caused by Desire"
dlh:
the second one
Russ:
"To end suffering, you must remove Desire"
dlh:
the third one
eadon-com:
I would say that if someone doesn't believe
in the supernatural then they are not spiritual,
just normal
Russ:
I forget the other 472
dlh:
drum rolls
dlh:
the eight fold noble path Russ
eadon-com:
WarPriest I think you will find that someone
who is a psychopath will tend to harm others.
Religion plays no part in that. Pychopathy is
a mental disorder, the part of the brain that
tells us not to harm others is damaged in psychopaths
WarPriest:
eadon, an exception does not disprove a rule
eadon-com:
Well it shows that the brain, not religion,
is behind violence
WarPriest:
eadon, that is just speculation..current thought
is a little more complicated than that
ChestRockwell:
so where
then does the origin of morality lie?
Russ:
The origins of morality, peace within the tribe?
dlh:
I think ethics come from an evolved man
Batman:
morality's origin is in the Anthropic principle,
man cannot exist unless he is moral, or he would
destroy himself.
dlh:
an evolved man wants peace and security, hence
we have laws outlawing murder
WarPriest:
god, eadon, don't you know that people's minds
are influenced by their environment which includes
religious pressures and ideas?!?!?!?!
eadon-com:
Brain scans show that psychopaths have damage
or little activity in the frontal cortex where
behavior is regulated
Russ:
The tribe survives better when a set of rules
govern the behavior of the individuals
eadon-com:
Sure WarPriest, but I am pointing out that the
brain itself is important too.
WarPriest:
eadon that is besides the point
eadon-com:
This doesn't fit well with your religion = moral
model
ChestRockwell:
Russ, that
smacks of ethics or survival instinct, I don't
see a connection with morality
Russ:
CR, I'm talking about man two million years
ago
JGR:
Many "christian morals" originate from within,
not within the spirit but within the flesh.
Religion exposes and tries to enforce it no?
WarPriest:
eadon, show me how it hurts my case
dlh:
obviously, if god does not exist, and man has
evolved, ethics must come from man
Russ:
... the origin of morality.
eadon-com:
it hurts your case because there exists a part
of the brain that actually stops us from harming
people. That is not learned. it is an innate
behavior. Religion has influence, but not as
much influence as WarPriest might suppose
eadon-com:
Upbringing is also important. Those kids who
grow up without love are far more likely to
become violent in later life.
WarPriest:
no eadon, you are wrong...there is no part of
the brain that stops us from harming others,
there is a part of the brain when damaged that
might not allow us to stop from harming others...two
entirely different things
eadon-com:
So WarPriest, you admit that the brain is important
in preventing us from harming people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At last!
eadon-com:
We evolved to be moral. We are a tribal species.
JGR:
I think WarPriest that you are reversing the
process here. Our morals don't come from religion.
Morals come from man. You skip that very important
first step.
WarPriest:
well JGR, I don't think I can miss a step that
I don't believe in, eh?
dlh:
yes JGR, Spong said it well in his book Why
Christianity Must Change or Die
Russ:
Religion just puts a label on the morals, it's
not the morals themselves
JGR:
You [WarPriest] don't believe in man?
WarPriest:
you can't attack my argument by saying that
I don't accept something I don't accept
WarPriest:
no, I don't believe that man created morality...God
did
Russ:
"God is a Man"
eadon-com:
what was dlh's quote from the bible saying that
violence against women is permitted by the bible?
dlh:
ah, Deuteronomy 25 eadon, don't leave home without
it
Batman:
they stole that from Hammurabi.
WarPriest:
it starts on the 14th or 15th
dlh:
the penalty for hand w*nking
eadon-com:
Or the quote in the bible saying that a woman
must marry her rapist? I don't even think the
bible is very moral
ChestRockwell:
I agree with
WarPriest that morality can only come from God;
therefore, there is no such thing as morality
as there is no God
dlh:
well ChestRockwell and WarPriest, if god does
not exist, then morality would have to come
from man eh?
Russ:
LOL ChestRockwell, just make sure you pay your
child support on time
WarPriest:
if you don't believe in God, I would agree that
there is no morality (or any meaningful concept
called morality that is not just the same as
ethics)
ChestRockwell:
no, morality
is just a word, nothing else
JGR:
Well, eadon has a fine point about the brain.
Violence and depression etc.. can be suppressed
by drugs. A stroke can make someone violent
and nutty. Morality and the brain seem to be
twined up pretty good. I don't know how you
can't see it WarPriest.
Russ:
JGR, that would be the biochemical explanation
of emotion
ChestRockwell:
we act by
our survival instincts, not by any rule of morality
eadon-com:
history teaches us that morality is not constant.
Nietzsche pointed this out.
WarPriest:
well ChestRockwell, philosophically speaking,
if you don't believe in God then I think the
best way to go is the pleasure principle
ChestRockwell:
man created
ethics to ensure group survival, but there is
no moral behavior associated with this
eadon-com:
what is WarPriest's reaction to JGR's comment
about drugs and the brain?
dlh:
the devil drove Nietzsche insane eadon, every
good fundamentalist knows that [dlh refers to
the more crazed Christians. Dlh and eadon are
not religious]
JGR:
WarPriest is trying to make a case based on
a feeling he doesn't even have since he does
believe in god. Interesting.
ChestRockwell:
morality
implies a greater good-does greater good exist
in a godless universe?
WarPriest:
well, eadon and JGR, I don't see how the fact
that the mind is connected to (or resides in)
the brain hurts my argument one bit...my argument
has to do with what a man SHOULD do if there
is no God and what effect this would have, of
course I am assuming sanity, etc. as this is
most common...
dlh:
well, morality need not be based on god, but
it can be
WarPriest:
if morality isn't based on God then I would
say it's either just ethics dressed up or a
sham
dlh:
yes WarPriest, sometimes morality and ethics
are used interchangeably
WarPriest:
well, they shouldn't be
Batman:
I think that morality should be a subset of
ethics. A poor man's ethics.
Russ:
What is the difference between moral and ethic
rmcmanus:
no mind, no world, no Buddha....nuff said
ChestRockwell:
morality
and ethics are not interchangeable imho
Batman:
it's ethical to be moral, but it's not always
moral to be ethical.
JGR:
Why should a man consider a morality without
god's existence or non-existence? He has a moral
code regardless.----WarPriest, this is our point.
rmcmanus:
ethics supposes a transcendental justification.....Kant
, I think....morality not....just a useful definition
Batman:
atheistic morality is a covenant between men,
based on humanism.
WarPriest:
JGR, my point is that moral code is influenced
by religion whether he believes in it or not
Batman:
"If you will a maxim of your action to be universal
law, it is a moral action." that is Kant.
DeaconNihilo:
what exactly does that mean
Batman:
hehe.. it means "Do unto others..."
Russ:
Ethics defines what IS right and wrong, morality
is whether one DOES right or wrong, one has
the "moral strength" to follow their "Ethical
standard"
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