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eadon-com:
when I talk to xtians it is fairly rare to see
them go "bla bla bla waffle" mark 1:3.38
FishOn:
I regularly read works by Buddhist, Jewish,
and other faiths. Although christianity is right
for me...I do NOT say it is right for everyone.
I don't even think that religion in general
is right for everyone. I don't know where I'd
be today.. if I had not begun my journey of
discovery as a christian. My view is that your
religion is only a "grounding point" from which
to continue to pursue you own truth and enlightenment...if
you get trapped in your religion..and don't
grow, yer missing many great discoveries
eadon-com:
nice tell there FishOn. Only snag is.... Grounding
yourself in religion is like holding onto overhead
power lines whilst dipping your feet in a bucket
of mercury
FishOn:
well, I have an alternative snag for you eadon
eadon-com:
<tremble>
FishOn:
not being grounded...means to waver from here
to there...it produces chaos
eadon-com:
so what's the snag? lol
FishOn:
chaos is a good thing...okay then :)
eadon-com:
chaos is great :)
Madpole:
eadon is a believer who denies believing...
how can we show him the TRUTH ?
FishOn:
lemme say this (though this may fall short on
atheist's ears)...I'm a Christian. but do not
believe that Jesus was god
eadon-com:
FishOn likes order....... the world is chaotic..........FishOn
finds refuge in the false harbour of a mythical
religion
FishOn:
not harbor...but a reference point...a place
to understand (and not forget) ancient wisdom
eadon-com:
ancient wisdom = burning bushes that talk.
FishOn:
I don't throw it away...but remember that the
ancients had a view of truth that we easily
forget in a modern science-driven world
FishOn:
now don't put words in my mouth eadon...I don't
believe in burning bushes that talk and are
not consumed
dlh:
the fundies tell me it was God talking through
a burning bush, LOL
eadon-com:
FishOn, I'm sorry there. so many xtians believe
in the ancient wisdom of burning bushes that
talk. My confusion. sorry
FishOn:
ancient wisdom...as in proverbs
Madpole:
Please - why bushes are SO IMPORTANT ? Explain
?
FishOn:
ancient wisdom as in the 10 commandments. Ancient
wisdom in that material wealth does not bring
happiness
dlh:
don't forget Balaam's ass, the talking donkey
eadon-com:
Epicurus said something similar FishOn
FishOn:
ancient wisdom as in we are all connected in
a great fabric of life...how we treat others
effects us and our children
PerrinAybara:
there are too many people agreeing here.. we
need some radical people or fundies here
eadon-com:
Does FishOn believe in Satan?
Madpole:
No! FishOn is too clever for that!
FishOn:
my first instinct is to ask you what you mean
by satan :)
Madpole:
it is only stupid humans who invented "Satan"
term
eadon-com:
Satan, big bad dude who, as dlh will tell you,
warms the lake for the sinners
dlh:
satan is the snake who crawled around on his
belly in the old testament
FishOn:
I do believe that humans have a dark, selfish
nature that left untempered, has an evil influence
in the world
FishOn:
that aspect of HUMANS is Satan. but there is
no "being" satan
eadon-com:
I'm not sure people are naturally evil FishOn
FishOn:
I didn't say that
eadon-com:
I thing people evolved to be cooperative
dlh:
isn't satan a "fallen angel"?
dlh:
sounds like a country western song
FishOn:
I said that humans have both good and bad within
there capacity...left untempered and to follow
only selfish ends...the evil aspects can become
manifest
eadon-com:
does FishOn believe in a Devil-less world?
FishOn:
I hope for one
dlh:
maybe Satan could drive a truck and have his
wife leave him
eadon-com:
I doubt it FishOn. all over the world people
live in tribes and villages quite happily
PerrinAybara:
fighting other villages
FishOn:
agree eadon.. but that is non-sequitur
eadon-com:
I bet Satan's missus is a woman to behold!
Madpole:
I would not like to meet her.. but she must
have some power... and since Satan does not
exist... she better sees her psychiatrist!
eadon-com:
So if you don't believe in Satan then why do
you believe in God?
FishOn:
the fact that people can live quite happily
in what we may view as a primitive state.. simply
illustrates that materialism does not lead to
fulfilment
FishOn:
because my view of god is as the creative, and
directive force...this is not on par with satan.
God in this sense.. has at purpose (and by definition)
pure good. Satan is not the natural polarity
of god
eadon-com:
FishOn likes to believe in god because god is
a cuddly, cosy, comforting big daddy figure....
but....
FishOn:
eadon.. after all the discussions we've had...
and you still don't understand me
eadon-com:
FishOn likes NOT to believe in a big, nasty,
evil Devil for devils are not so cuddly and
fun and they spread chaos! I'm right, eh?
PerrinAybara:
I don't think FishOn sees god as a daddy
FishOn:
eadon...why do you feel that if there is a god
(in fact) that there must be a satan?
Madpole:
This is eadon FishOn! But it is all about Stimulation...
we are all godly figures... and by arguing we
are changing world for better
BelievingBill:
Satan/the
Serpent is just the representation of anything
that is anti-God/christianity
FishOn:
I think eadon has the typical and misguided
anthropomorphic view of god as some kind of
man-like being
eadon-com:
on the contrary, if there is a god he is not
man-like, sure as hell!
WickedMerlin:
or maybe God is a representation of everything
that is against Satan
JGR:
The Bible does nothing to dispel that view FishOn...
FishOn:
why does god (per se) suggest satan...I don't
see the connection.
FishOn:
who said anything about the bible JGR?
JGR:
Christianity without the bible?
eadon-com:
I think that FishOn likes to believe in a god
because that way all the chaos in the world
can be soothed away
dlh:
the creation story in genesis is a rip-off of
an earlier Sumerian agricultural myth
FishOn:
satan is a metaphor for the human capacity for
evil...that can be overcome by taking a "non
animalistic" view of life
PerrinAybara:
if you see god as the creative and 'good' force,
why not name the dark force 'satan'?
eadon-com:
isn't satan in the bible? Jesus talked to him
in Matthew
FishOn:
and in Mark and Luke eadon
dlh:
snakes and trees played heavy parts in precedent
agricultural myths
FishOn:
Jesus' struggle with the devil after 40-days
in the wilderness is a metaphor
dlh:
FishOn! that would have been a cool WWF match
eh?
eadon-com:
so FishOn is saying that even though the devil
is mentioned in mark and luke and Matthew, he
chooses selectively to believe in god, but not
the devil! That is cherry picking methinks ;)
FishOn:
a metaphor for all of us dealing with the selfish
impulses (animalistic) and to overcome them
to serve a higher purpose.. a purpose that doesn't
always seem obvious
WickedMerlin:
it's all optional eadon
dlh:
brother eadon, are you familiar with the philosophy
of "modernism" as that term is ordinarily understood
in theological circles?
JGR:
I get the feeling though that FishOn thinks
that atheism is not rational, esp. considering
the debates the other day.
Madpole:
Leave poor Jesus Bloke alone! People still try
to crucify him 2000 YEARS LATER! I just don't
believe it!
eadon-com:
So god is a metaphor for our goodness just like
the devil is a metaphor for darkness?
BelievingBill:
according
to the Bible Satan is an unfaithful Angel who
was banned from Heaven by God... and ever since
he has been trying to pull Christians away from
God
FishOn:
not at all eadon....if you had studied ancient
writings and the oral tradition...such metaphor
was common.. and even at the time was not taken
literally
eadon-com:
and Jesus is a metaphor
eadon-com:
you can't have it all ways
FishOn:
only in our modern, scientific, journalistic
world are we so afraid to see metaphor when
it happens in our face
BelievingBill:
you can't
deny that Jesus has lived eadon... whether he
was God's Son or not
JGR:
BelievingBill, you CAN deny that Jesus did (even
as a political figure) exist. I'm not sure how
solid the argument is, but I could give you
a few links to research on the subject.
eadon-com:
so devil, Jesus and god are metaphors
FishOn:
yes, god is a metaphor
eadon-com:
so none of them really exist
PerrinAybara:
wow. 'exist' is a materialistic concept
WickedMerlin:
You are in deep now FishOn
dlh:
well eadon, you would agree there is nothing
wrong, at least on one level, in interpreting
the bible based upon present experience? It
is called "deconstructionism" or demythologization
I believe
eadon-com:
Nothing wrong with that dlh, as long as you
can separate metaphor from reality :)
dlh:
"Above all, we have to remember that the myth
of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded in the gospels
was just one of a number of redeemer mythologies."
John Allegro in his book Dead Sea Scrolls and
Christian Myth
FishOn:
sorry had to leave.. the females in the house
having trouble with the dvd player
dlh:
for sure eadon! And, ahem, brother eadon, we
need not mention names there do we? LOL
eadon-com:
Hehe
FishOn:
eadon...the term "god" as it is used to name
an entity is metaphorical for the creative design
of the universe
Isolani:
Did Jesus not say, "I am the first borne of
many sons."? Also, "the things that I do if
you have faith as a mustard seed you can do
it too punk." ?
FishOn:
I read and use the bible often.. but where the
bible disagrees with science and my own empiricism...I
must view it as metaphor...if that is cherry
picking.. then so be it
eadon-com:
Was the universe designed by an advertising
executive? To sell more bibles?
FishOn:
am I compelled to answer that ?
eadon-com:
I'm only kidding FishOn :)
FishOn:
I know eadon :)
BelievingBill:
the first
statement is not true, JGR, that all claims
of Jesus derive from hearsay accounts...how
about the Bible?
WickedMerlin:
I hug Isolani (and his pig) [Isolani has a wonderful
(and large) pet pot-bellied pig called Mona]
eadon-com:
I hug his pig too
Isolani:
Thanks WickedMerlin. Watch the clean clothes,
pig has mud on her snout.
WhiteBeard:
story of my life hugging pigs:(
eadon-com:
well better to have hugged a pig than never
to have hugged at all :-))
WickedMerlin:
tell the pig to watch it too, I'm none too clean
myself
Isolani:
eadon You need a pig. WickedMerlin you too.
Get one and be happy :)
eadon-com:
hug Isolani's hog
WickedMerlin:
I see the errors of my way - get a pig , don't
marry one :(
Isolani:
"Do not marry" - St. Paul
eadon-com:
pigs would make lovely wives, and women lovely
pigs
WickedMerlin:
easy to confuse and the consequences are dire
Isolani:
Pigs leave the toilet seats down.
WickedMerlin:
and I am very glad my wife never finds out I
said this :)
Isolani:
My wife enjoys a good joke, she knows I love
her. I'm a Christian after all! This gives her
great security.
WickedMerlin:
and are you really a christian , Isolani?
eadon-com:
I think Isolani is an atheist :)
Isolani:
I believe in God, and Jesus. But I have a take
on the subject that isn't in line with orthodoxy.
Christians hate me.
WickedMerlin:
believing in God and Jesus doesn't make you
a Christian, Isolani
eadon-com:
I think you might find your line is quite common
in Europe Isolani
WickedMerlin:
I mean Pontius Pilatus believed in Jesus...
eadon-com:
the more you know the less the bible makes sense
if taken literally
BishopHavoc:
Pontius Pilate didn't know what he believed
Frankie, thus his question to Jesus "what is
truth" IMHO
WhiteBeard:
and he did not believe he was the son of god
WickedMerlin:
my point exactly WhiteBeard
BishopHavoc:
if anybody knows anything about crosses its
Jesus ,trust me
Isolani:
BishopHavoc is trying to tell us something I
think.
eadon-com:
strange how this god of yours can't seem to
tell us things
BishopHavoc:
god is trying to tell us that as the bible says
he is the 1 who puts men in power, democracy
is an illusion I believe
Isolani:
I was in church one time, way back when, when
during prayerful quiet a guy stood up and yelled,
"I disagree!" The preacher nodded to some huge
dudes (deacons) who escorted the man out.
BishopHavoc:
yeh Isolani that was me
Isolani:
BishopHavoc you were in Colorado in the early
1980's?
BishopHavoc:
just kidding dude
eadon-com:
nice of the preacher to use reason (able force)
WickedMerlin:
so to set things straight: Christians: Does
the old testament still stand?
BishopHavoc:
yes WickedMerlin!
WhiteBeard:
indeed
BishopHavoc:
but the new covenant is better than the old
eadon-com:
the old testament is about retribution and the
new about forgiveness. totally different religions.
BishopHavoc:
incorrect eadon IMHO
WhiteBeard:
its the same book
BishopHavoc:
love of losers Jesus loves losers
Isolani:
Joseph of Arimathea wasn't a "loser."
BishopHavoc:
until christ, Israel was under the guardianship
of the commandments
BishopHavoc:
the commandments proved no one was without sin
WickedMerlin:
eadon has a very good point, Can't say you've
done anything to disprove it.
Isolani:
A tradition called Midrash, a literary/history
tradition, is said by some to explain why what
was written was written.
eadon-com:
so why did god make man sinful and then condemn
sin? Surely god should take responsibility and
blame himself
BishopHavoc:
with the advent of christ, he has paid for our
sins with his precious blood
WickedMerlin:
not all that precious I would say. If he is
omnipotent all he needs to do is make himself
another
eadon-com:
think about it BishopHavoc, doesn't that sound
ridiculously contrived?
BishopHavoc:
with the advent of christ, he paid for our sins
with his precious blood!!
eadon-com:
as WickedMerlin said, god can make anything.
why is blood precious?
BishopHavoc:
his blood was precious because he was without
sin!!
Isolani:
Sounds like just the rote response I'd expect
from a member of a cult.
BishopHavoc:
yes Isolani I'm in the cult of christ, thx for
clarifying!!
Isolani:
So he never got an erection in his whole biological
life?
WickedMerlin:
so the story goes like this:
WickedMerlin:
1. God introduces sin
WickedMerlin:
2. Everyone is sinful
WickedMerlin:
3. he sacrifices his son to free everyone of
the sin he invented in the first place.
BishopHavoc:
WickedMerlin.. god didn't introduce sin ....satan
did
WickedMerlin:
and who introduced satan?
eadon-com:
not a very clever god eh BishopHavoc, as WickedMerlin
has shown!
Isolani:
BishopHavoc, then we must conclude God didn't
create Satan.
BishopHavoc:
and yes Adam and eve blundered by listening
to him
eadon-com:
The story BishopHavoc paints is of sin and evil
spinning around god's poor little head like
stars swirling around the bonce of a concussed
ed cartoon character!
Isolani:
I hear misfiring on all cylinders in BishopHavoc's
two-stroke brain.
WhiteBeard:
how many cylinders in a two stroker? :)
Isolani:
I know WhiteBeard my metaphor was bad:)
BishopHavoc:
yes Isolani as you well know god did create
Lucifer, who became satan
Isolani:
BishopHavoc just accepts God created the Evil
One, but not evil.
WickedMerlin:
BishopHavoc, sin is breaking Gods law, I.e.
the 10 commandments, right?
BishopHavoc:
and no eadon god doest have a poor little head......don't
you blaspheme in here ..don't you dare blaspheme....from
the movie blues brothers :-)
BishopHavoc:
right WickedMerlin
WickedMerlin:
and the 10 commandments first came up along
with Moses, right?
Isolani:
There were fifteen WickedMerlin, but Moses was
clumsy and dropped a tablet.
CryoWolf:
I'd love to know what the other 5 were.
WickedMerlin:
so Satan who invented sin/evil must have appeared
AFTER the 10 commandments (or 15)
Isolani:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's pig was
one.
eadon-com:
I fall at the first fence
BishopHavoc:
no WickedMerlin satan appeared in garden of
Eden
XTIANDOOMSTER:
Satan invented
nothing he perverted God's creation, hate is
love perverted,
eadon-com:
god created everything XtianDoomster?
eadon-com:
then god created the potential, at least, for
the perversion of his works
Isolani:
Apparently Satan invented (was the author of)
nothing.
WhiteBeard:
he didn't create eve he made her
BishopHavoc:
eadon love unless it has been tested is not
love IMHO
Isolani:
And you're testing mine BishopHavoc :)
Isolani:
Just joking hombre.
eadon-com:
My love for Isolani's pig is absolute, but untested.
I haven't had a chance yet to test my love for
her
Isolani:
eadon next time you're on the tiles in North
Carolina stop by, I'll introduce you to her
:)
eadon-com:
<faints>
WhiteBeard:
eadon your not built right for her:)
eadon-com:
Don't say that WhiteBeard! I Hope is all I have!
Isolani:
Hope is the thing with feathers - Emily Dickenson
eadon-com:
Like a chicken?
Isolani:
Yeah eadon, like a fowl. Hope is a skittery
pigeon.
BishopHavoc:
don't be sorry WickedMerlin, be thankful
eadon-com:
Hope is a goose, and mine is cooked
WickedMerlin:
hey guys - leave Hope alone!
Isolani:
I love hope. And charity too.
WickedMerlin:
Hope is what stands between us and the abyss
Isolani:
But one thing I've learned, is that you can't
have your Kate and Edith too.
eadon-com:
I thought that was beer, WickedMerlin
Isolani:
There is a fine line between drinking beer as
an embellishment to life and drinking it as
a crutch for inability to understand life. I
call that fine line "the Razor's Edge"
BishopHavoc:
not to worry!...seek the true living God...the
God of Abraham ,Isaac ,and Jacob!!!
BishopHavoc:
not to worry seek 7 77
eadon-com:
I hate to ask, but what is 7 77?
Isolani:
7 is a magical number in the cult of blood known
as NT Christianity eadon.
BishopHavoc:
oh glad you asked eadon ..and WickedMerlin you
were right 7 77 is Jesus' address!!!!!!
WickedMerlin:
hmm the meaning eludes me, BishopHavoc.
BishopHavoc:
7 77 is numeric code for heaven WickedMerlin
BishopHavoc:
7 denotes completeness
eadon-com:
7 77 sounds like a bloody huge aeroplane
eadon-com:
is it in the bible?
BishopHavoc:
7 77 (heaven) is completely joyful (much like
this channel)
eadon-com:
so it isn't in the bible?
BishopHavoc:
yes eadon... it is a bloody huge AIRplane. The
bible uses the number 7 many, many times
BishopHavoc:
not to worry seek Jesus 7 77
CryoWolf:
Can't interpret "jesus777" in specification.
Undecipherable seeking line.
WickedMerlin:
BishopHavoc, the Bible uses any number a lot
of times, and it definitely doesn't give 777
as the zip-code for heaven.
BishopHavoc:
WickedMerlin ...spiritual words (AND#) are spiritually
discerned
Isolani:
Lots of numbers used in the Bible, both testaments.
Six. Seven. On the eighth day a child is circumcised.
BishopHavoc:
not to worry seek Jesus 7 77
Isolani:
"To God one day is as a thousand years." etc.
BishopHavoc:
BishopHavoc take break
Isolani:
BishopHavoc speak like caveman.
eadon-com:
this 7 77 biz is frustrating. why the hell do
you say that?
WickedMerlin:
totally agrees eadon.
Isolani:
It's a hot key he uses as filler for his slow
typing eadon.
Isolani:
Take a break BishopHavoc, stir the chicken-soup-for-the-soul
that's on your mental stove.
BishopHavoc:
ps please any feel free to flog away..........its
my confirmation!!!!!!!!!!!!
Isolani:
I thought BishopHavoc was a Vietnam Vet. But
it's confirmation time?
WickedMerlin:
You need to chill a bit, BishopHavoc, Believe
in God and Jesus and all the rest if you like,
but don't go flapping "mystic" numbers pretending
they are significant.
BelievingBill:
christian
faith is too complex to understand. That's why
it's called faith. But there's no use philosophising
about it
Isolani:
There's a good reason to investigate the matter
BelievingBill, because it builds faith!
Isolani:
Selah.
BelievingBill:
Yes that's
true, but you just have to accept you can't
understand everything
HammondEggs:
Of course you can't understand everything. That
doesn't mean you should give up trying to understand
and just trust blindly.
BelievingBill:
I don't do
that. But I trust God more than I trust my mind.
HammondEggs:
What makes you think God isn't in your mind?
BelievingBill:
the notion
of God is there, but God himself isn't.
Isolani:
A fine distinction there.
eadon-com:
BelievingBill, let me ask you this? do you use
your mind to trust?
BelievingBill:
yes, but
I also use my heart.
eadon-com:
your heart???????????????????????
HammondEggs:
Your heart just pumps blood. What you call your
"heart" is in your mind.
Isolani:
The heart is a palpating organ for pumping blood!
BelievingBill:
ok, feeling
BelievingBill:
that's the
materialist view yeah
HammondEggs:
Yes, feeling is in your mind, naturally.
eadon-com:
so BelievingBill trusts not with his heart but
with his mind, his brain!
BelievingBill:
I make a
distinction between reason, and emotion, feeling,
whatever you want to call it.
Isolani:
Mind, will, and emotions reside in the corpus
of BelievingBill, I'll help out with that.
BishopHavoc:
you have no heart how would you know??
eadon-com:
So BelievingBill's brain tells BelievingBill
that he trusts god more than his brain LOL!!!!
Isolani:
BishopHavoc you've been brain-washed. Cleanly
too.
BelievingBill:
my brain
tells me christianity is bullshit, sometimes.
eadon-com:
Ah!
BishopHavoc:
Satan's army are the only ones brainwashed,
and Isolani I am beginning to think you are
in Satan's army
Isolani:
There ya go BelievingBill it will deepen your
faith once you "process' that sentiment honestly.
Believe me.
BelievingBill:
but then
comes the Holy Spirit and suddenly I'm convinced
that God is love and sacrificed his Son for
my sin
Isolani:
Investigate the matter, it comes up good.
BelievingBill:
Isolani,
I have gone through that process and I still
am, and it deepens my faith every day
eadon-com:
an honest tell that BelievingBill, about your
brain telling you christianity is bullshit sometimes.
this is good! you are questioning!
Isolani:
BishopHavoc it's you who is Satanic! You are
like the volcano loving peoples of yore.
BelievingBill:
but why would
I trust my own stupid brain. God is so many
times smarter than me
Isolani:
What brings truth out of the realm of superstition?
Certainly not Christians.
eadon-com:
well BelievingBill the nexus of the matter is
this: all your thoughts are generated inside
your brain
HammondEggs:
Your brain is what tells you you are communicating
with God. You have to trust your brain at some
level.
BishopHavoc:
I hate to say this Isolani ,but you really can
be quite immature sometimes
BelievingBill:
eadon, you
just keep reducing everything spiritual to material
Isolani:
Get closer to God via further examination. Do
not be afraid of further examination.
eadon-com:
Forgive me BelievingBill! I apologise if I have
offended you, that is not my intention
BelievingBill:
you didn't
offend me
eadon-com:
so your brains says "BelievingBill! why should
you trust your stupid brain!"
eadon-com:
what do you say to that!
BishopHavoc:
you are not making much sense eadon...not like
you
BelievingBill:
as I said
before, there's no use philosophising like this,
because christianity cannot be captured with
the human brain
Isolani:
If God or one's idea of God is so easily accosted,
then your notion is errant. Closer examination,
if your god be god, shall revivify your faith,
albeit while shaking your current ideation.
BishopHavoc:
translate please
Isolani:
Lesser gods shall fall away
eadon-com:
so BelievingBill you are saying that not all
you're knowledge stems from your brain?
Isolani:
The big shake-down!
BelievingBill:
it doesn't
stem from the brain, the brain just digests
knowledge that comes from outside
Isolani:
Finally, after much inspection (and introspection)
when Jesus comes to fore then there's your God.
BishopHavoc:
Jesus is Lord!!
eadon-com:
this is interesting BelievingBill
eadon-com:
I think we are onto something here
BelievingBill:
eadon, when
you watch the news, does the information about
what is going on in the world stem from your
brain? No, it's the news reporter who tells
you.
eadon-com:
How do you KNOW that your thoughts about god
are not generated by your brain?
eadon-com:
yes, you weigh up the evidence. But always your
brain is involved
BelievingBill:
I don't KNOW
that, I FEEL it
eadon-com:
you FEEL it?
eadon-com:
Your brain generates your feelings!
BelievingBill:
yes it is
involved, like your eye is involved in the process
of seeing something
BelievingBill:
eadon, ever
heard of the Holy Spirit?
eadon-com:
sure
BelievingBill:
the Holy
Spirit works inside people.
eadon-com:
the eye senses, but your brain generates the
3D image! A complex process too
BelievingBill:
yes, and
so all organs have their own function. But neither
of them generates thought.
PerrinAybara:
how about the brain?
eadon-com:
So BelievingBill the brain is an organ, yes?
dlh:
woah, eadon said organ
HammondEggs:
Isolani, where do you draw the line between
religion and philosophy? Or is there no line
to be drawn?
PerrinAybara:
Beavis
eadon-com:
I think with my organ for sure
dlh:
lol eadon
BelievingBill:
I guess..
but sorry if my bad English made me say anything
untrue
dlh:
well eadon, the philosophical subject of dualism
can be far removed from the discussion of an
external Santa Claus god existing in a heaven
somewhere
eadon-com:
so great! the brain is an organ! and so BelievingBill
admits that an organ generates thought after
all!
BelievingBill:
philosophy
is a science, religion is not
eadon-com:
so does BelievingBill agree that the brain is
an organ and therefore an organ generates thought?
BelievingBill:
I never said
the brain generates thought eadon.
HammondEggs:
BelievingBill, I wasn't asking in general. I
was curious in Isolani's case specifically,
because he obviously blurs such distinctions.
eadon-com:
BelievingBill:
yes, and
so all organs have their own function. But neither
of them generates thought.
BelievingBill:
eadon, I
don't see how that follows logically from the
fact that the brain is an organ
Dudge:
I think what BelievingBill may be disputing
is that the brain creates thought, eadon.
Isolani:
Science is a bad word tonight, once again.
eadon-com:
the brain is an organ. The brain generates thought
BelievingBill:
it depends
on how you define thought. If thought is defined
as the product of the brain, then there's no
way out
dlh:
well, can we have thought without a brain?
BelievingBill:
No
WarPriest:
maybe
eadon-com:
Yes, every time I think of Uma Thurman or Charlize
Theron :)
dlh:
If I were to lose my arm in a car wreck, I could
still generate thoughts
BelievingBill:
the brain
is just an instrument to process thought
WarPriest:
if you lost your heart you couldn't therefore
the heart generates thoughts :)
dlh:
even modern medicine buys into the theory of
the innate, maybe it is what generates the spiritual
side of ourselves
eadon-com:
BelievingBill, when you think and you are in
a scanner, your brain lights up. Proof?
HammondEggs:
BelievingBill's bordering on Platonic philosophy
here.
eadon-com:
Scientists have isolated with thoughts are generated
by which parts of the brain
BelievingBill:
No, because
it does not prove that my thought stem from
my brain
eadon-com:
so what does the brain do? We are dealing with
a device with billions of cells, each with many
thousands of connections to other cells. What
does all that structure do BelievingBill? Does
it just sit there and do nothing?
BelievingBill:
as I said,
it depends on how you define thought. Maybe
our thoughts are created by the mind, but then
the mind must be nurtured by something else.
So again, thought doesn't stem from the brain.
eadon-com:
the brain takes input from your senses and makes
thoughts, and your consciousness is the output
BelievingBill:
the innate
is accepted by almost all modern scientists
eadon. How do you explain that? Where does it
come from?
eadon-com:
the innate is an interesting subject for sure.
The brain is so complex that it is probably
capable of generating the illusion of the innate
BelievingBill:
so you actually
state that the innate doesn't exist?
eadon-com:
the innate is simply an artefact of consciousness
WarPriest:
the innate is innately innate
eadon-com:
you are not the same guy, BelievingBill as you
were when you were five years old, after all!
dlh:
the innate goes right down to the cellular level.
It is probably part of evolution
Isolani:
When BelievingBill was five he was tractable.
Now he's out of the fence
BelievingBill:
sorry, but
I fail to understand that. Take, for example,
UG in linguistics.. it's the innate feeling
for language that humans have.. where does it
come from?
eadon-com:
BelievingBill the brain contains several 1,000,000,000's
of cells! Each is connected to about 10,000
others. That is a powerful machine! The average
human vocab is about 16,000 words. So language
is not so hard for the brain
eadon-com:
a simple neural net software program running
in a computer can understand and learn words
and that contains only 100's of cells and 1000's
of connections
Isolani:
Cellular Christianity! I love it!
BelievingBill:
but then
it must be innate. Babies have it right after
they're born.
Isolani:
We are all machines then eadon? Plausible, but
not comforting.
eadon-com:
The point is, BelievingBill, is that you don't
understand just how powerful the brain is!
eadon-com:
it is not comforting! agreed!
BelievingBill:
I'm not talking
about vocabulary, because a baby doesn't have
one..still it has feeling for the way sentences
ought to be constructed
eadon-com:
Sure, so do machines made of silicon. Maybe
some rules are hard wired.
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