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eadon-com:
the consciousness is passive. The subconscious
is the active element
Viking:
see these questions have no answers eadon, it
is SILLY to claim to know answers
Batman:
the subconscious is active??? that makes no
sense at all eadon.
eadon-com:
it makes perfect sense. It explains why speech
"flows out of you" you can't predict what you
will say next.
PriestPyramid:
I agree with
Viking, not all questions have meaningful answers
Isolani:
We have opinions not answers. That makes this
chatting thingy so much fun.
Batman:
the subconscious are the depths of the mind,
the massive and passive storeroom for all memories
and experiences.
PriestPyramid:
the very
nature of consciousness itself is a mystery
to me
Batman:
maybe eadon is just loquacious and speech flows
from him...:)
Viking:
a human being should acknowledge the limits
of his understanding eadon. You are being RELIGIOUS
now
eadon-com:
yes indeed Viking. But I am willing to admit
that my conscious mind is not as powerful as
generally admitted
Batman:
yes, I DO agree that the subconscious has more
play that some may think.
PriestPyramid:
I think the
'event horizon' of our knowledge is a layer
of paradox
Batman:
what about people with speech impediments? do
you suggest that they have weak subconsciouses?
Isolani:
Batman you cavil.
eadon-com:
I have experimental evidence to prove my point:
Brain scans. For example: when people are shown
computer graphics and are asked to make a decision
they are asked to say when they are conscious,
CONSCIOUS of making a decision. As it happens
the brain scan proves that they have already
made the decision before they are Conscious
of having make that decision!
Batman:
the subconscious is the source of imagination.
Batman:
some people are more prone to "listen" to their
subconscious than others.
Batman:
emotions are also subconscious.
eadon-com:
So my observations are based, not on ego; not
upon religious-like faith., but on experimental,
scientific evidence.
eadon-com:
So I am right and you losers are all wrong :)
Batman:
hah.
Isolani:
Ow, that hurts.
WhiteBeard:
I want a re count
Batman:
the brain scan does not contain a "zone" which
is conscious and subconscious.
TheologeanX:
Obviously they have to make a decision before
they can truthfully say they've made a decision.
I miss the point.
PriestPyramid:
I think our
emotions are to the Good/value dimension of
our experience as our 5 senses are to the time/space/physical
universe part of our experience
TyroWarlock:
its kind odd to PROVE something is done in the
subconscious or conscious mind.. its not something
we can really comprehend, and nothing can tell
if something you are thinking is in the conscious
or subconscious mind..
eadon-com:
The experimental evidence is decisive here.
Batman:
yes, the decision is made consciously, THEN
the "decision to speak about the prior decision"
is made.
eadon-com:
We can't rely on our brain's intuition alone
to determine whether our conscious mind or our
subconscious mind is in control. Intuition is
worse than useless. Experiment, however, can
be a reliable guide.
TyroWarlock:
essentially.. EVERYTHING goes on in subconscious..
but you there are two things you can do to call
upon something from it, either simply think
of something, and run through the links in your
brain.. or an external stimuli (something you
look at) will demand an automatic link to something
else
Isolani:
TheologeanX I think meant that there is of course
a delay in reacting to the conscious mind's
decision with the physical act of 'deciding'
(saying, pointing, indicating).
BishopHavoc:
surely you jest eadon .. intuition rules
Batman:
intuition is purely subconscious.
eadon-com:
intuition is often wrong.
Batman:
intuition is the imagination that that gave
man everything he has...:)
TheologeanX:
Intuition resides somewhere other than in the
conscious or subconscious?
eadon-com:
If intuition ruled, then everyone would instinctively
believe in the same god, or lack of one.
TyroWarlock:
yes.. intuition IS purely subconscious
Batman:
intuition is purely subconscious.
eadon-com:
NO!!!1
Batman:
yes..
PriestPyramid:
maybe
TyroWarlock:
yes it is :)
eadon-com:
Intuition would not be perceived unless it was
conscious!
TyroWarlock:
read a book on this..
Batman:
intuition has a complementary Conscious counter-part...
TheologeanX:
How do we perceive a subconscious?
TyroWarlock:
eadon, you are kind of being ignorant here
Batman:
probably Reason...
TheologeanX:
How do we perceive a subconscious decision?
Batman:
he's not being ignorant, he's being backwards.
:)
Batman:
modern science is garbage at psychology.
eadon-com:
Think about this, think about the next tell
[chat entry] you make. Did that tell originate
from the conscious mind or the subconscious
mind? Think about it.
TyroWarlock:
eadon, a structure of both
Batman:
haha..eadon is that all you have?
TheologeanX:
How can we tell the difference?
Isolani:
Schopenhauer - not only did he assert the dominance
of the emotions and the supreme importance of
sexuality but he was even aware of the mechanism
of repression - Freud on Schopenhauer
PriestPyramid:
My guardian
angel tells me that the really good tells come
from God. :)
Viking:
eadon should start his own religion: Rule 1:
You make NO conscious decisions because eadon
says so. Rule 2: there is no other rules
PriestPyramid:
eadon, never
piss off eternal beings armed with flaming swords
TyroWarlock:
essentially.. everything your brain works on,
whether you consciously THINK about it or not,
goes through the subconscious mind
eadon-com:
think about this: Everything you say, all that
you tell, all that you taste, all that you see,
hear or smell is sent to you by the subconscious
mind. That is HOW YOU BECOME CONSCOUS OF IT
IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Viking:
don't stop there eadon
WhiteBeard:
did you Isolani?...wonder if I could check it
out at the lib?
TyroWarlock:
yes.. that is what I said.. everything that
is in your conscious mind comes from your subconscious
mind.. you're right there eadon. I don't even
know what the original damned argument was
Isolani:
eadon are you saying that all our sense perceptions
are firstly engaged by the subconscious, that
they are secondary or tertiary sense "impressions"
mediated by the subconscious?
BishopHavoc:
here here now what's all the fuss, this circular
reasoning is making me dizzy
eadon-com:
I'm glad it's making you dizzy BishopHavoc,
now you are thinking, questioning your assumptions
about how you perceive reality!
Batman:
the conscious mind adds structure.
Viking:
and everything that is in subconscious mind
comes from....????
TyroWarlock:
external stimuli Viking. All of your life's
experiences, or stimuli that comes from your
senses.. yeah and instincts too
Batman:
subconscious comes from experiences, instincts...etc.
conscious meanderings shoved back into unconsciousness
Viking:
the chain does not stop there
Isolani:
So Batman our subconscious accumulates, gets
larger so to say over time?
Batman: .
eadon-com:
VIKING everything starts from input, from the
senses
Viking:
nonsense
Batman:
nope, instinct...archetypes..
Viking:
nah
TyroWarlock:
what don't you agree with Viking?
eadon-com:
Next what happens is that the subconscious analyses
the input
Isolani:
And the subconscious mediates, that is to say
receives impressions prior to the conscious?
Viking:
don't cut the chain at some point that is ok
with you
eadon-com:
the subconscious then tells the conscious mind
what to be aware of.
eadon-com:
I can prove it! Here goes...
eadon-com:
What are you aware of now????
Isolani:
Ooof, I never say "prove" in here.
PriestPyramid:
Open that
door to perception
Isolani:
Aldous Huxley PriestPyramid I caught your reference.
PriestPyramid:
excellent
Isolani
Viking:
Doors of Perception by Huxley. He used drugs
to open those doors
eadon-com:
Are you aware of text on the screen?
Batman:
there is always something of a subconscious
mediation, either partial or full, for the conscious
mind to be able to have a few coherent choices.
eadon-com:
let me ask you this!
eadon-com:
Are you aware of the smell entering your left
nostril
PriestPyramid:
Huxley had
a model which emphasized the filtering process
of the brain
eadon-com:
Are you?
eadon-com:
Now you are! (If you read my tells)
TyroWarlock:
for example.. you have this channel a different
color than every one of them. If you are talking
in one. your subconscious mind realizes there
are a bunch of other chatter going on, but you
are only AWARE of this channel
eadon-com:
But all this time
TheologeanX:
eadon is my subconscious...
TheologeanX:
...telling me what to be aware of
TyroWarlock:
good point eadon.. that was similar to mine
eadon-com:
your subconscious mind has been aware of the
smell entering your left nostril!
eadon-com:
and now you are aware because your subconscious
has drawn it to your attention!
eadon-com:
I rest my case.
TyroWarlock:
due to the external stimuli.. of eadon's text
on the screen
Isolani:
eadon is the father-of-twins figure none of
us ever had.
Viking:
why do you stop the chain there eadon? Certainly
there is smaller components that explain the
subconscious
Batman:
what about people with Tourettes Syndrome eadon?
TyroWarlock:
like what Viking?
Viking:
like strings if you wish
TyroWarlock:
that's a nervous system disorder right? external
stimuli can't get to the brain right. or the
brain can't interpret the stimuli..That or I'm
thinking of another disease. Tourettes is the
random yelling or something right?
TheologeanX:
Spontaneous vocalizations
Batman:
it when the dude talks, and he doesn't know
if he's talkin or thinkin.
TyroWarlock:
I'm not sure about that
Batman:
seems like the "subconscious decision making
mechanism" went to far and enveloped the part
of the mind that decides on speaking.
eadon-com:
To recap, all that you do, say, think, hear,
see, taste, smell and feel are what the subconscious
mind makes you aware of at any one time. The
conscious mind is passive. It merely acknowledges
what the subconscious mind tells it to acknowledge!
And nothing more. If you place any more importance
upon the role of the conscious mind then consider
this.... What made your conscious mind accept
that thought???
TheologeanX:
Cosmic Subconsciousness !!
BishopHavoc:
temple of the subconscious personae
PriestPyramid:
I hear it
can be proven that consciousness is not possible
Batman:
sometimes my subconscious mind will offer me
a choice of two or three things to say in a
rebuttal.
Viking:
start a religion eadon. Anthropic questions
have no answers eadon, if you pretend otherwise,
you are being religious
TyroWarlock:
I always think people that do not believe in
the subconscious mind are quite silly.. why
don't you just don't believe you have a liver?
eadon-com:
When you hit a tennis ball, it is your subconscious
hitting that ball. You are only conscious of
having hit that ball AFTER it has travelled
back over the net.
Batman:
hmmm...there is some element of preparedness,
but the subconscious doesn't "hit" anything.
Viking:
I don't think there is anyone here who does
not acknowledge the subconscious. But eadon
has made it his God, it seems
TyroWarlock:
you're taking it too far there eadon with that
tennis ball analogy.
eadon-com:
Not at all. There are two paths from the optic
nerve.One path from the optic never goes to
the conscious mind, the other path from the
optic nerve goes to the subconscious mind. The
subconscious mind path is faster than the conscious
mind path...
TyroWarlock:
I don't understand what you disagree with then
Viking.. :)
Viking:
I disagree with eadon's religion TyroWarlock
TyroWarlock:
What religion of his?
Batman:
eadon, there is not line in the brain whereby
one side of which can be called "Conscious"
and the other "Subconscious!"
Isolani:
eadon describes the subconscious as a dictator
while Viking seems to regard the subconscious
as a tutor.
Batman:
the anatomy of the brain contains no "Subconscious
Lobe."
TyroWarlock:
no eadon.. "The subconscious mind path is faster
than the conscious mind path" is wrong.. They
are just as fast as the other, but the subconscious
does seem faster
eadon-com:
This has been proven by experiments involving
the distinction between optical illusions of
the conscious mind and the accuracy of the muscular
coordination involved in dynamic manoeuvring
of the muscles caused by the subconscious
Viking:
science cannot point "subconscious" in the brain,
that is where you go wrong
TyroWarlock:
If I thought about this enough I could come
up with my own personal philosophy on EVERYTHING
again
eadon-com:
and therefore I am again proven correct by experimental
evidence. Your intuition, lads, fails you yet
again. :(
TyroWarlock:
yes, he was wrong there Viking
DarthDeath:
Intuition: SO sucky
eadon-com:
Yes it can Viking that is where YOU are wrong.
It is easy to do.
TyroWarlock:
how?
eadon-com:
Easy
Viking:
lol, you are too much
TyroWarlock:
how?
Batman:
I disagree eadon, there is much about the brain
we cannot pretend to know.
BishopHavoc:
eadon don't you think the subconscious is primarily
telling us what NOT to do.. like don't walk
outside naked if you don't want to be embarrassed
.. and such
Viking:
eadon is religious
eadon-com:
You simply ask people when they acknowledge
conscious experiences and then see what parts
of the brain are active during a scan.
wmurdoch:
eadon? Religious?
eadon-com:
I'm not religious.
TyroWarlock:
no.. that's not a sufficient way eadon
Isolani:
Playing jazz or writing prose like Kerouac is
one thing, determining to solve a mathematical
equation is another. Or is it?
TyroWarlock:
you are CONSTANTLY using your brain
eadon-com:
It is simple experiment.
Viking:
it is not simple, again you fail to notice the
point
TyroWarlock:
you cannot just pretend to not think about something
Viking:
they don't even know THEMSELVES whether it was
a "conscious" or "unconscious" decision
TyroWarlock:
well.. I've got to go.. as for some constructive
name calling.. eadon knows a lot about the mind
but is still confused on a few things, you'll
get it all right soon
eadon-com:
Viking it is trivially easy to distinguish between
the two. I would have thought you would have
known that.
TyroWarlock:
its not eadon, you are the only one that is
saying that :)
Viking:
explain eadon, empty claims make you look silly
Batman:
I don't buy your spiel about the "muscular dynamic
adjustment of muscles" or whatever eadon. :)
eadon-com:
not empty. It is easy...
Viking:
lol eadon
PriestPyramid:
<the semi-retired
angry God of the Old Testament who crushed Sampson
and obliterated Sodom suddenly develops an interest
in making eadon a personal project>
BishopHavoc:
God did not crush Sampson
wmurdoch:
Nope, I guess the temple roof did the actual
work there.
eadon-com:
for example if I report an experience and a
scam shows a part of my brain active then it
is possible that that part of the brain is part
of my conscious experience, where as if I report
that I am not conscious of something and parts
of my brain are active then it is possible that
those parts of my brain are involved in subconscious
processes.
Viking:
is eadon being serious here, or is this some
joke?
eadon-com:
There is an easily quantifiable cause and effect
going on here.
Batman:
I'm familiar with those sorts of tests..
TyroWarlock:
but eadon.. that experiment contradicts one
of your "givens" that the subconscious is constantly
working
Batman:
heh
TyroWarlock:
and you can't be conscious of what you are not
conscious of!
PriestPyramid:
picky
TheologeanX:
So a brain scan showing which areas are active
during prayer provide us with a physical locus
for the spirit?
Viking:
there is no certain part "conscious" or "subconscious"
in the brain eadon, subconscious or conscious
do NOT show in the scam
eadon-com:
It does VIKING. But you can see, when you make
a decision based on a stimulus, that the decision
is made before the conscious mind is aware of
it.
Viking:
only brain activity shows. Was it conscious
or subconscious or both?? the scam says nothing
about that
BishopHavoc:
scam?....Freudian slip
Batman:
patients with severed corpus collosa showed
entire hemispheres are being subconscious.
TyroWarlock:
yes that is also true.. there is no section
of the brain you can just cut out that is "subconscious"
Viking:
yes TyroWarlock. eadon thinks otherwise it seems
eadon-com:
People report being aware of something or they
don't. There is corresponding and respective
brain activity.
TyroWarlock:
no eadon.. I'll use your own thing. Are you
conscious of the smells in your left nostril?
TyroWarlock:
.. .. you are now!
eadon-com:
I am now, TyroWarlock
Viking:
know you are giving truth value to those people
reporting, LOL
TyroWarlock:
you CANNOT be conscious of what you not conscious
of.. give any example at all
Viking:
uuummmmm, I think that was a conscious decision
Viking:
that perhaps wasn't
eadon-com:
But I wasn't until TyroWarlock directed my subconscious
to the fact.
TyroWarlock:
hehe that's kinda cool the way you said that
Viking:
see, now eadon's theory is proven
eadon-com:
Everything I write is written by my subconscious"!
That is the point
wmurdoch:
I lost this thread about two screen's worth
ago.
Isolani:
This seems to be like splitting hairs, it's
a gray area, the brain (no pun intended).
TyroWarlock:
no no no no eadon
Viking:
lol, you parrot you
wmurdoch:
A gray area that doesn't "matter," Isolani?
TyroWarlock:
<pulls out hairs on his head due to frustration>
TheologeanX:
Religious schism is painful to watch.
wmurdoch:
I'd pull out my gray hairs if they'd grow back
brown again.
eadon-com:
Viking and all of you have made an assumption,
which you are afraid to question, because you
are all closed minded, and so am I
Isolani:
Doctrinal difference foment into an altercation
- between heathens! This is NEWS!
TyroWarlock:
what is this assumption
eadon-com:
All of you assume that what you think is a product
of choice, of the conscious mind. I challenge
that assumption.
Viking:
I don't think that
TyroWarlock:
didn't we just explain the opposite of that?!?!
Batman:
does choice exist eadon?
TyroWarlock:
we went in a full circle
eadon-com:
I don't think [conscious choice] exists Batman
TyroWarlock:
eadon said that about 40 minutes ago I think..
Batman:
hmmm...are you attempting to set the stage for
a predeterminalism argument?
Isolani:
I think it should be clear that Viking's notions
are not definitively opposite eadon's and there
is much conversation necessary to pinpoint the
exact difference between their separate view.
Unless eadon actually intends to go into politics.
Viking:
free will does exist, trust your senses eadon.
Free will is coupled to consciousness
eadon-com:
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I
do not trust my senses!
TyroWarlock:
oh dear god!! all of our actions are predetermined
by!! gasp!! our OWN BRAINS!!!
Batman:
one question however: why can't the subconscious,
then, be capable of choice?
Viking:
you can argue it is an illusion. But what you
are saying is, that you don't actually argue
it, the stuff that you are made of force you
to do it
eadon-com:
Batman can you say such an outrageous thing,
that free will is coupled to our consciousness?????????????
TheologeanX:
eadon posits that the subconscious makes all
decisions.
eadon-com:
Yes TheologeanX, you are correct, I do
PriestPyramid:
Everyone
knows that the liver is the seat of consciousness
Viking:
but think of this: the stuff you are made of
you claim forces your actions. What is that
stuff made of?
eadon-com:
It is the subconscious mind
Viking:
go further
eadon-com:
well I already have
wmurdoch:
My subconscious is telling my conscious that
it better d____ well go feed both of them or
the UNconcious is going to take over. Cya.
Isolani:
eadon thinks our subconscious directs us, while
Viking thinks the subconscious is not trivial
and perhaps mediates in some way.
eadon-com:
The conscious mind is merely an acknowledgement
of what the subconscious mind tells us to obediently
observe.
Viking:
lets say the smallest component in this universe,
the basic building block, be it some "string"
"point particle" or something else. You are
saying nothing else matters but these tiny things
acting according to some laws?
eadon-com:
yes, indeed I do believe that is true Viking
TyroWarlock:
we only see red, blue and yellow
eadon-com:
now that is different
Batman:
no, I see purple.
TyroWarlock:
there is some 4th color they can see, that we
can't
eadon-com:
What we "see" is the result of the brain's computations
Batman:
not entirely eadon.
TyroWarlock:
I would assume it is closest to blue.. because
in the color spectrum, which color appears largest
to us? blue! there could be another color mixed
in there
Viking:
"where" do the laws of science exist eadon?
eadon-com:
Not true TyroWarlock
Batman:
it's all relative TyroWarlock.
DarthDeath:
that's what I think
eadon-com:
We can see green where red is the predominant
colour
Viking:
what makes that smallest component go just that
certain way and not something else?
TyroWarlock:
Well, I'm not sure which is generally largest..
but it would be closest to that one
eadon-com:
The brain filters out ambient light to try to
determine underlying colour differences.
TyroWarlock:
are you gonna babble on all night about this?
:)
eadon-com:
Well I am being challenged, I should try to
explain my insights against adversity
BishopHavoc:
subconscious + conscience = will......end of
story
Viking:
ignorance is a bliss BishopHavoc, you have all
the answers
BishopHavoc:
I'll dare you blaspheme in here Viking :-)
TyroWarlock:
you know what Viking.. even though the smarter
people are .. indeed smarter, the ignorant lead
happier lives
Viking:
I believe so TyroWarlock
PriestPyramid:
It is better
to be lucky than smart
eadon-com:
I think that you are all leading a life of illusion
TyroWarlock:
yes, we all do eadon
TheologeanX:
We all are your illusion, eadon.
BishopHavoc:
its better to be alive than dead.... look into
it
TyroWarlock:
there's trillions (if not a bigger number) of
things we can't sense
eadon-com:
you all wilfully go along with the delusion
that your conscious minds are making your decision
for you, what you see, taste, smell and fell
and hear. I am merely pointing out to you that
your conscious mind is merely a slave to the
subconscious.
TyroWarlock:
god dammit eadon no one in here thinks that!
:)
TyroWarlock:
or if they do they haven't said so, or I'm not
paying attention good enough.. one of those
3
Batman:
yes, I believe in free will.
Isolani:
Ok, Batman just said it.
TheologeanX:
Attack !!
BishopHavoc:
and slaves should obey their masters .. look
into it if you please
eadon-com:
You are detecting a tiny fragment of your environment
teased from reality by your more knowledgeable
subconscious mind and you are actually ignorant
of everything except what your subconscious
chooses to let you be "aware" of.
Viking:
I believe in free will too, though I usually
like to question those who claim it for a fact
Isolani:
Hey BishopHavoc, I obey my master, not quite
as unto the Lord but I put in a quality 11 hr.
day every day.
Batman:
I'm conscious of a "control panel" of rules
which my subconscious uses for sake of wildling
away useless data in order for my conscious
mind to make a proper decision.
eadon-com:
eadon is trying to tell you the unpleasant truth,
and hopes you will humour and forgive him
Viking:
eadon, you are making a logical fallacy
eadon-com:
Freewill is just wishful thinking
Viking:
I already told you that chain has no end. Don't
stop at subconscious, go further, you will find
there is no end
TheologeanX:
The subconscious has no freedom, but it chooses
amongst alternatives.
Isolani:
Yes the chain should not be argued about, it's
endless.
Viking:
it just goes on and on. You stop at subconscious
and claim you have the truth, how silly
eadon-com:
I already countered that one. Viking it starts
at the senses... we went through this already.
TyroWarlock:
you could go on about your nervous system's
electrical and magnetic give off's.. auras,
psionics. chi energy, all that. Or you could
go to learning techniques, functions of the
body
Viking:
no eadon
JGR:
Only eadon could turn the agnostics and the
Christians against him....
Isolani:
It's involved in our language eadon I think,
its severe limitations. You'd have to write
a book and supply an index of your own specific
definitions to even common words.
Viking:
certainly you can explain the "senses" in smaller
components and so on and so on, until you arrive
to the smallest component of this universe and
they you find out, there are no answers anymore,
just the mysterious
TyroWarlock:
it starts with instinct THEN senses
PriestPyramid:
<wonders
why a 'dead' universe suddenly 'peoples' itself
with self-conscious beings>
Batman:
if I make a bad decision, I consciously affect
the maxims which control the subconscious information
narrowing process to gain wisdom.
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The Indoctrinating Apologeticist | Subject: | 2003-03-09 03:17:52 |
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Andy Taylor | Subject: | 2003-10-06 10:25:26 |
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Samson | Subject: | 2004-07-11 19:58:11 |
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John | Subject: | 2004-07-11 20:03:57 |
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jo | Subject: | 2006-05-24 22:17:37 |
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barbarella | Subject: | 2006-12-14 09:41:00 |
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