Talkback Falling Tree Paradox

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From:	Vic	2000-11-14 16:36:23
Subject:	if a tree falls in a forest..
Comment:	If a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there to see it is it really there? that would be a better question. Since we are assuming that the tree actually does exist we must assume that various laws of nautre also exist, hence the tree falling in the forest would make a noise. But if a person and a tree both fall in a forest at the same time, do they make noise? hmmmmm....
From:	Sound Advice	2001-09-19 19:55:15
Subject:	No sound.
Comment:	I don't think that the question posed is a matter of Quantum mechanics, but rather that of the definition of sound. Sound, as defined in Olsen, Harry F.:Music, Physics and Engineering : Dover Publications, Inc. N.Y., 2nd ed. : 1967., is 'the auditory sensation produced through the ear by the alteration ... in pressure, particle displacement, or particle velocity which is propagated in an elastic medium'. I've never heard the question with the wording you used. I've always heard it as: 'If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound?' In applying the definintion above to the 'classical' version of the question, the answer is no.
From:	sticks...	2001-12-07 13:46:22
Subject:	Re: Sound...
Comment:	Sorry.. I can't hear you! What did you say?!!!
From:	Andy	2002-01-18 12:06:24
Subject:	Trees
Comment:	If a tree falls in a forest it is impossible for there to be nothing there to hear it in the first place. There is always some form of animal or insect life in a forest. Therefore why argue on an impossible event. And on top of that does anyone have irrefutable evidence that the trees themselves cannot actually 'hear'?
From:	tianwalker	2002-05-10 21:38:59
Subject:	surely not
Comment:	it surely dose not make sound it just makes sound wave only ears and brain can turn it into sound
From:	Erica	2002-05-19 18:53:23
Subject:	Mediums
Comment:	If sound needs a medium to travel and there is nothing there to hear it then it does not make a sound. it will, of course, create vibrations but since there is nothing for the vibrations to travel through no sound is made.
From:	paul	2002-06-05 20:51:01
Subject:	consider this...
Comment:	it is true that a sound requires a vibrating source, a medium and a vibrating reciever. but those three things only deal with vibrations, which are very different than sounds. sound is our brain's interpretation of the compression waves that hit our eardrums. you could say that sound only exists in our head, outside there are only waves. it is the combination of our eardrums and our brain that actually 'make' the sound. so the correct answer is that if a tree falls in the forest AND someone IS there to hear it, it STILL doesnt make a sound. now if you can see that this logic is correct, apply the same reasoning to vision, then space, then time. you'll see that everything that exists as we experience it because our brain works as it does.
From:	John Albanese	2002-08-23 01:36:51
Subject:	The tree falling...
Comment:	the only way for a bieng to hear things is when air molecules are vibrated which creates sound waves that vibrate our ear drums and creates 'sound' or noise. Therefore when the tree falls it does create the molecules in the air to vibrate and does create sound waves, only to be intercepted by an eardrum or anything which will interpret sound. So yes it will make sound...to eardrums..If no one is around...no..because other trees do not have ear drums. Hey if im wrong, shoot me..im only 16!
From:	karie	2002-09-09 15:30:00
Subject:	falling tree
Comment:	does a tree make a noise in the woods if there is no one there to hear it? this is elementary. question: because i dont appear to see or hear something, does it mean it doesnt exist? Many things in life exist beyond my ability to hear and see.. were sleeping giants.
From:	nofx junkee	2002-11-16 06:17:19
Subject:	it makes no sound fools!
Comment:	<p>i would have to say that it indeed makes so sound whatsoever. waves and ripples and the like are emitted and that energy is then turned into sound which exists as sound in our mind and as waves to the rest of the world. does 'colour' exist? no! what HUMANS perceive as 'colour' is just how OUR body interprets the various wavelengths of light. so no 'sound' is made when the tree falls just the ingredients for our bodies to create sound.</p> <p>if a tree grows, is it a pile of paper? no, it has potential to become paper given the right processing, but you cannot say that 'paper' exists simply because there is a tree somewhere.</p> <p>dispute me if you will, but i am right and you are wrong and you will be the fool and when my turn comes to rule this dimension i will laugh at you who oppose me and send you straight to the place where you must dodge falling trees on a daily basis. and these trees will emit no sound when they fall, just to spite you.</p>
From:	Aaron	2003-04-16 09:22:52
Subject:	Your all wrong fools!
Comment:	If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around does it make a sound? YES!--- but it's not quite what you might think. Scientists have been dealing with the problem of natural tree falls (and the sound they make--or don't make) for quite some time and have drawn some rather surprising conclusions. If a tree falls and there is a person around the sound is easily recognized. If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody nearby, the sound that it makes is very different and often not recognized as the sound of a tree falling. Either way, there is a sound. Even though plants do not show any changes to the naked (or lensed) eye, when a human is in their presence systemic biological changes have been discovered that have grave effects on plant life when a person is within 300 meters. This effect is called 'human stress syndrome'. Apparently, when a tree is about to fall, if it senses a human nearby the biological stresses of human presence cause the cell walls in the plant to become brittle and it is the cell brittleness responsible for the familiar sound we know as that of a tree fall. The cell brittleness also has significant effects to the quality of the lumber, making it much more suitable for use in construction (see below).
From:	Fiona	2003-06-01 09:33:06
Subject:	falling tree
Comment:	Ask yourself, What is sound? Your answer will probably be 'what you hear' Well. If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it then it will not make a sound because sound only exists if something is there to hear it. Still confused, just stop and think about it.
From:	afterimage	2003-08-03 05:17:15
Subject:	ok
Comment:	Its obviously makes a sound because a object by itself fall will make a sound. Ex: A waterbottle falls off a desk , your telling me it doesnt make a sound ... PROPOSTEROUS!!!!! Of course a tree would make a sound.
From:	Mike Digrazia	2003-08-20 11:53:06
Subject:	definition of sound
Comment:	I offer this definition of sound from www.dictionary.com Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. Now we all know that when a tree falls it can't help but to create vibrations included within 20 to 20,000 heartz. Wether or not someone is around to hear it is immaterial... it's capable of being heard and therefore is sound.
From:	Prof. Benjamin Krastins	2003-09-09 05:33:36
Subject:	Sound and Trees
Comment:	The question that is posed is if indeed a tree makes a noise when it hits the ground when nobody is around. The definition of making a noise (sound) is soundwaves that pass through the air. Yes it does make a noise but if nobody is around to hear it does it still make a noise. Yes it does. If you were to say no, that would be absurd. If you put a microphone there and have nobody within 1000's of km radius will the microphone pick up the noise. Yes. For something to make a noise, does it need something or someone to hear it, no. Therefore the answer to this question is Yes, it does make a noise.
From:	Neo	2003-09-10 06:19:22
Subject:	falling tree
Comment:	I would like to strongly argue with the so called Proffesor Ben Krastins... what the hell do you think ur a professor in, u know absolutely nothing... as i was saying, of course the tree doesn't make any sound. A microphone may work like an ear but are we saying... does it make a noise to the microphone... no, the question clearly states that if the noise is picked up by the human ear if. WEll if nobody is there, then,... no, of course it doesn't make a sound. I rest my case.
From:	B. Krastins	2003-09-10 06:25:46
Subject:	THE TREE HAS FALLEN
Comment:	Neo, obviosly you are disilusional... you are absurd just as absurd as the question itself. The question actualy clearly states if it makes a sound. If a deaf man was standing next to the tree then would it still make a sound... yes... a deaf man may not hear it but the tree still makes a sound. By the way there could be animals around. I finally conclude by saying, if a tree falls and a blind man hears it fall, did it fall... do we exist... does the tree exist... this question is simply irrational and absurd... fin
From:	Neo	2003-09-10 06:36:59
Subject:	The tree is falling....???
Comment:	if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make noise, that is the question you ... you... professor guy. It may make a noise but no sound. If you look it up in the dictionary, it is the human interpretation of vibrating waves... nobody is there, then nobody hears it, therefore it makes no sound.... noise yes, but NO SOUND
From:	Stormy	2003-09-13 14:52:15
Subject:	Oh, tree problems are easy...
Comment:	It's about belief, see? If you BELIEVE the tree makes a noise, then it makes a noise. The whole universe is really an illusion created by your beliefs. One cannot know anything is 100% 'true' except the statement 'I exist'. This must be true because if one didn't exist, how could one know you didn't exist? Eh, eh? Anyway, the point is the observer is the only certain event. Everything else is merely a perception of the observer. Similarly, if a tree falls in the woods and a blind and deaf person is standing next to it, to that person, no tree has fallen (ignore air currents and stuff). No matter what else anyone else informs that blind and deaf person, the tree will never have fallen in their reality unless they believe it. Reality is not universal - every person has their own version of it, and they are all slightly (or in some cases, majorly) different.
From:	Feanmucker	2003-09-26 16:19:39
Subject:	Fundamental Problem
Comment:	This question can never be answered because we have conflicting definitions of just what sound is! Is it 'Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing'? Or is it 'The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium'? One says that sound requires an ear and one says is just the vibrations. Therefore we cannot answer the question until we sort out the definition of sound.
From:	mr.citydog	2003-10-03 11:43:39
Subject:	falling trees
Comment:	YES!--- but it's not quite what you might think. Scientists have been dealing with the problem of natural tree falls (and the sound they make--or don't make) for quite some time and have drawn some rather surprising conclusions. If a tree falls and there is a person around the sound is easily recognized. If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody nearby, the sound that it makes is very different and often not recognized as the sound of a tree falling. Either way, there is a sound. Even though plants do not show any changes to the naked (or lensed) eye, when a human is in their presence systemic biological changes have been discovered that have grave effects on plant life when a person is within 300 meters. This effect is called 'human stress syndrome'. Apparently, when a tree is about to fall, if it senses a human nearby the biological stresses of human presence cause the cell walls in the plant to become brittle and it is the cell brittleness responsible for the familiar sound we know as that of a tree fall. The cell brittleness also has significant effects to the quality of the lumber, making it much more suitable for use in construction
From:	Clayton Carter	2003-11-13 02:16:11
Subject:	semantics of sound
Comment:	Sound is the harmonic vibration of air particles in wave-like patterns. Even light must emit a certain sound of its own while in air. Water transmits sounds, sand can even produce it by rubbing against eachother. But a certain semantics (meaning) is applied to sounds by human tokening. The tree would make a sound, it is a physical certainty, but the sematics that a human applies to the sound is lost. So the answer is yes and no, yes, there is a viration of air particles in a wave-length form, but the meaning of this sound to human functionality is totally lost.
From:	Suta Gosvami	2003-11-19 18:44:50
Subject:	Falling Tree
Comment:	If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, then it does not make a sound as sound is something that is heard. The brain transforms sound waves into sound, so if there is no-one around to hear the sound then there is no sound. If a tape recorder is left in the woods then that is still not proof. When the tape is listened to, the sound heard is the sound of the tape recorder reproducing the sound waves picked up in the woods - not the sound of a falling tree itself. So, if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it then, no, it does not make a sound.
From:	Swapan	2003-12-19 00:25:00
Subject:	TREEE
Comment:	Hey theres Vibration and more over are there woods without birds ??? or just makin ppl fool if u dono believe in theories that are proven then u r from Pluto !!! so u never hear a noise Have u seen a Blind man crossing road or a deaf man crossing road see it man u get ur answers ur self.
From:	V	2004-02-14 13:36:55
Subject:	Tree falling ...
Comment:	I found this while trying to answere my sons question: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it does it make a sound? He's 7. His answer: No/ He said when he was inside a tree fell outside and he could see it but could not hear it because the waves couldn't reach him lol
From:	Ben	2004-04-20 16:55:05
Subject:	the law says yes.
Comment:	if i were a lawyer who had a video tape of the tree falling over (with sound) then i'd win my case. in fact i'd probably get an out of court settlement. but since all objects resonate, do all objects make sound? if all objects make sound (if you have the right equipment) then a tree in the forest makes sound (if you have the right equipment) falling or not. without a rule book to the question surely you can't answer one way or another. personally i think it doesn't make a sound!
From:	Mr Esquire	2004-05-03 23:44:49
Subject:	If a tree falls in a forest
Comment:	If a tree falls on the moon, does it make a sound? No sane person would say yes. Why not? It still vibrates as it lands. What difference does an atmosphere make? It only serves as a medium to transfer the vibration to something else, like an ear. Does a microphone record sound? No. It only converts mechanical vibration into an electrical signal. Does a tape recorder store sound? No. It saves magnetic information. Is it sound if an eardrum vibrates? No. A deaf person's ear still vibrates. Sound, like color, smell, taste, etc., only occur because the brain interprets an electrical stimulation as such. The brain could just as easily have interpreted a vibrating eardrum as smell. It could just as easily have interpreted a stimulus from the optic nerve as taste. Or in the case of an electrical instrument, nothing more than colorless, lifeless energy.
From:	Djordje Dragic	2004-05-05 12:19:59
Subject:	READ CAREFULLY
Comment:	THIS LINK: http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/quantum/quantum.jsp?id=23334400 It says: 'Physicists call this leakage of information 'decoherence'. But what if there is no decoherence? What if the photon and the mirror and the gun and the cat remain completely isolated from the outside world? According to quantum mechanics, that can only mean that the cat is in a superposition of states. It is both alive and dead, and neither alive nor dead, and it remains in this peculiar condition indefinitely, until someone opens the box.' IF SOMEONE HEARS THE TREE FALLING ITS DECOHERENCE. Without it we don't know if tree made sound or not, in fact it did both things (superposition). It's like the question IS THERE GOD? you cant hear it or see it, just belive in it. Please send me email about what you think orangekds@mail.ru
From:	Steph	2004-05-11 00:08:01
Subject:	tree
Comment:	Of course a falling tree in a forest WON'T make a noise if no one is there to hear it. The definition of sound from the dictionary.reference.com is 'Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, CAPABLE OF BEING DETECTED BY HUMAN ORGANS OF HEARING.' So, in other words, if you are not there to pick up the sounds of the tree falling then it does NOT make a sound. Now, you might say something like 'Well if an avalanche occurs because of a high pitched sound and people are there to see the avalanche take place, then it obviosly occurred.' Well, that is somewhat correct, but the sound still never occurred if no one heard it themselves. The sound VIBRATIONS are present in the air, but the sound itself is not because a human is not there to receive the sound.
From:	RO'H	2004-08-02 05:57:23
Subject:	The Answer
Comment:	I like how you're thinking about the whole 'tree falling in the woods when nobody's around' thing, but I think I have the actual answer. The big question is, 'does it make a sound'? but let's first ask, what is sound? Think about that. Well, that's not so easy a question eh? :) Sound exists only in our minds, it is merely a perception that was useful for life to develop. Y'know, helps us kill and avoid being killed, all that fun stuff :P So without a mind to perceive the sound of the tree falling that sound never exists. It would continue to exist as a shockwave in the air though, as opposed to your theory, it just wouldn't exist as 'sound'. Just little air molecules hitting off each other. So, the answer is no, the tree doesn't make a sound.
From:	martin	2004-08-12 06:48:15
Subject:	Tree falls
Comment:	mu
From:	infomix	2004-09-01 05:24:21
Subject:	how about this?
Comment:	What if we placed the tape recorder (tape recoder is not someone) in the woods and happen to be recordimg when the tree fell. Does it record anything .... parhaps the sound? There was nobody there.
From:	Togo	2004-09-11 10:45:26
Subject:	Most important issue
Comment:	It appears to me that all the comments above fail to address the most important issue here.
From:	pop idol	2004-09-11 11:16:01
Subject:	re: my 7 year old child...
Comment:	'if i were a virgin...' - sings madonna. well, she aint - otherwise how come she's got kids?!!!!
From:	Maria	2004-09-23 22:54:57
Subject:	Experience will say so
Comment:	But to be perceived you first need to experience the sensation of sound. Berkely had a good train of thought on the subject, but fouled it up with his faith in God. God is our ulimate perceiver and therefore since he is always here, heard the sound, and the answer was yes. But for those of us who use a more scientific approach, experience alone tell us that some sound was made and the question would be how much of a sound would of been heard. Now it a lighting bolt hit the tree, would we even of heard the sound of the tree falling or would the storm of been so loud, we could not hear the tree falling? Hume would say that our impressions are a sensory experience itself, and ideas are the memory of an exerience, so if a tree fell and we were not there to hear it, it made No sound, our memory just tells us it would of made a sound. But one thing for sure is that a fallen tree, would make an awsome campfire to roast marshmellows with.
From:	Mike DiGrazia	2004-10-30 04:44:54
Subject:	Why must I repeat myself
Comment:	Please excuse me for repeating my previous point but some ignorant people don't seem to try to understand the question before answering it. As I mentioned before Sound is 'Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.'(www.dictionary.com) As Steph so intelligently clarified part of that definition includes the words 'CAPABLE OF BEING DETECTED BY HUMAN ORGANS OF HEARING'(Tree, Steph). Steph if I may once again argue that just because no one hears a sound doesn't mean it wasn't capable of being heard. To confirm the appropriateness of this example I would like you to consider the property heat. If, for example, you place your hand in a fire it will burn you. The heat of the fire can therefore be said to be capable of burning you; whether you place you hand in the fire OR NOT! Similarly if the “sound” of a tree falling is between 20 to 20,000 hertz –now this is as simply as I can put it people, so please pay attention—the vibrations that are between 20 to 20,000 hertz are emitted from the falling tree then they are 'CAPABLE OF BEING DETECTED BY HUMAN ORGANS OF HEARING'; and therefore are sound whether or not a person is around to hear them.
From:	Mike DiGrazia	2004-10-30 04:47:10
Subject:	Why must I repeat myself 2
Comment:	(Ironically i find myself cutting my post in half because of a character limit) Also if you people have nothing better to do then argue the semantics of the question I will have to point out that the question itself was most likely asked without considering the silly little difference you people think is between sound and noise. Honestly do you think the question would be better rephrased as: If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it then does it produce something that someone heard?, or If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it does it produce something that we consider to exist when we are around to hear it? The answer to the former is no, but then the question itself is flawed. If one loses site of the true question what could having an answer possibly be of any value?
From:	Daniel Strnad	2004-11-12 22:08:33
Subject:	you are deaf
Comment:	The answer to the former is, of course, 'yes' and it saddens me deeply that the author who brought such eloquent argument with such rare clarity, amongst all other tosh and rumblings here, could shoot himself in the foot so easily, falling to the temptation of answering incorrectly his own questions, hence contradicting everything that he had conveyed so credibly earlier. But perhaps I didn't understand the question correctly: I am not English, and got my tenses wrong? 'does it produce something that someone heard?' Of course it does! You yourself proved it that it produces a sound, and most people have heard a sound at least once, therefore the only valid question here is: 'if there is a tree falling and a person who was born deaf in a safe distance near by, would the tree make a noise?'. And, to save some of you time on your silly arguments, let me remind you that a sound is a vibration 'CAPABLE OF BEING DETECTED BY HUMAN ORGANS' but, naturally, a terminally deaf person is not. So that's yet another half baked theory down the pan.
From:	McBrain	2004-11-12 23:30:08
Subject:	Absence
Comment:	I agree with Mike as well, the question is simply flawed. We call tap water drinkable even though we haven't drank it yet, we call it drinkable because it has a CAPACITY TO BE DRUNK. But if we drink this water and it turns out to be poisonous then we call this drinkable water undrinkable. Similarly a witness is as necessary to observe the absence of sound as nobody is needed to observe its presence.
From:	john	2004-11-13 19:16:58
Subject:	falling tree
Comment:	A falling tree emits sound waves which inturn need to be picked up by some type of reciever, i.e. a human ear. Does the brain not interpret these sounds and allow us to know what it sounds like, if the only person in the forest is deaf does it make a noise - NO, as there is no reciver to interpret the noise. The waves emmitted just carry on travelling until they become so thin they cannot be heard.
From:	Cindy	2004-11-15 21:55:04
Subject:	entropy
Comment:	Could you repeat this John? You are fading away... :)
From:	TD	2004-11-18 20:23:27
Subject:	deaf tree
Comment:	The arguments go as such: Yes, it makes sound because 1) it is CAPABLE of being heard, 2) soundwaves are produced and radiate outward until energy is fully displaced (soundwaves being the primary agent for sound), and 3) are we so vain as to think that things exist only when we validate their existence? No, it doesn't make sound because 1) sound is only sound when it is PERCEIVED as such so simply, no one to perceive it means there is no sound. OK, so a few of you mentioned having a deaf person there. Mute point. A deaf person's eardrums may vibrate but the signal is ill-received by the brain and simply not interpreted. Don't deaf people feel soundwaves as well though? (actually, we all probably do but are less sensitive to the feeling) We can't use a deaf person or a tape recorder as evidence either way.
From:	ben	2004-11-29 18:48:26
Subject:	if there wasnt sound would the tree fall
Comment:	Hold on, but what about Big Bang then? You say we are so vain as to think that things exist only when we validate their existence and then you say that sound does not exist if we are not there, but what about Big Bang then, what about it, we definitely weren't there when it all happened, tape recorders hadn't been invented either, but today stupid scientists listen to and record the sound of Big Bang so maybe some stupid scientists of tomorrow will be able to listen to and record the sound of the tree that had falled millions of years previously in a total silence, because there was nobody to hear it?!!!!!
From:	Jami	2004-12-10 03:56:20
Subject:	Just ask
Comment:	If I stood behind you and blew a dog whistle, then proceeded to ask you if you heard a sound, you would say no, because it was as quiet as if I had done nothing. Yet if a dog was there it would make a sound to the dog because it would have heard it. Because sound is perspective, if no one was there to here the tree fall, it would not make a noise. For all the people questioning the impossibility of that environment existing, it is a HYPOTHETICAL question meant to make you think outside the box.
From:	Barri_Kid	2004-12-13 01:18:45
Subject:	Trees make sound
Comment:	If a tree fell in the woods then whould it make a sound? Logicaly it would make a sound, but if people wernt there to hear the sound then people wouldnt know if the sound was made. If a tree does fall then it would have to fall on something to make the sound. So logicaly there would be a sound, but no one would hear it. But since everything makes a sound, somethings smaller than other, but there is always sound then oviously there has to be a sound connected to the tree. Therefore a tree makes a sound. Also there is a noise, which is not heard because no one is there. A will make a sound but not a noise.
From:	David M.	2004-12-17 20:52:24
Subject:	Trees falling
Comment:	Taking no side in this interminable discussion, as the definition of sound referring to 20,000 cycles per second did not exist two and a half centuries ago in the days of Bishop Berkeley, is it legitimate to use this modern definition when exploring this old controversy?
From:	dave	2005-01-05 16:06:41
Subject:	does a falling tree make a noise?
Comment:	Trees are by their very nature inanimate and not capable of producing noise. Noise is defined as sound. Sound is defined as a vibration that the 'ear' can detect ( from Websters dictionary ). If you define sound differently then the whole point is mute and my argument is easily dismissed. Wind, loggers with chainsaws, beavers, fungi that destroy trees' roots, age, freezing weather and and lots of rain, forest fires - - are all instances of external stimuli that cause trees to fall, therefore they; and not the trees, cause the sound which in turn causes the noise. So if you take the statement literally , the tree itself does not 'make' a noise or a sound. Trees and all plants can move but they do not produce sound waves that humans can hear. Furthermore, if any statement is not taken 'literally' then it can mean anything anyone chooses, and it then becomes a philosophical argument which , as any freshman who has taken philosophy 101 knows, has no right or wrong.
From:	Spooony/Bentley	2005-01-05 18:44:52
Subject:	Falling tree
Comment:	Look it doesn't matter if it makes a sound or not the point of it is to make poele open there minds.
From:	Mike	2005-01-11 22:44:46
Subject:	The problem with atheism
Comment:	Simply put to claim to be an atheist is to commit intellectual suicide. Let me explain: If a person claims that there is no God then that person is claiming to be All-Knowing which if that where the case that person would in fact be God. So from my perspective it would make far more sense to claim to be agnostic. Ultimately if a person truly wants to know if there is a God ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will.
From:	ron	2005-01-15 13:12:12
Subject:	no sound?
Comment:	the definition of 'making sound' is different to 'hearing sound' the question asks, does it 'make sound', well of course it does, but if there is no one in the vicinity to hear it, then no one hears the sound. But just because no one hears the sound does not mean the falling tree does not make sound. its simple, what's with all this philospopical crap?
From:	Clem	2005-01-19 06:50:55
Subject:	Why does the tree fall?
Comment:	hmmm....just wondering but how did the tree fall in the first place? Can a tree fall on it's own?
From:	Chris	2005-01-23 23:31:30
Subject:	no, just vibrations
Comment:	no sound, sound is just our way of knowing vibrations exist around us. but without a transducer, (human ear) to convert vibration to audio, sound does not exist in itself. Question? does pain exist in fire? no, pain does not in itself exist anywhere. it is our bodies. way of sensing something. like sound. so the answer is no, it makes no sound
From:	BraVerte	2005-01-24 19:58:58
Subject:	Two People AT LEAST!
Comment:	In order to answer any question correctly and accurately one ought to ask oneself the most important question of all: “what is the god damn question?!!!!!”. A falling tree may not produce any sound when there is nobody around to hear it, but does it produce a noise?!!!!! NOISE!!!!! Noise is defined as “sound that is a disagreeable auditory experience” therefore the answer is: “no – at least 2 people are required for a disagreement to exist therefore one person is not quantitatively sufficient to hear a noise, any noise, any noise at all, including the noise of the falling tree obviously. So there – it is not what you see or don’t see that matters – it is who you see or don’t see it with!
From:	grabbin	2005-02-23 23:21:32
Subject:	Tree falling
Comment:	The consequence of the falling tree is the release of energy, thus vibrating air molecules (VAMs). The question is: are VAMs 'sound', or the potential to be 'sound'. Some type of transducer that can convert this type of energy to another is necessary, such as an 'ear', which converts the VAMs to some type of nerve stimulus that our brain, or any other organism with this type of transducer, can perceive. Thus 'sound' is a perception. It has been argued that if some type of recording device captures the event, in the absences of any 'ears', it still registers the sound. Not exactly. It, via the microphone, converted the VAMs to electrical impulses and stored them on magnetic tape, or memory locations, etc. The playback of this storage reproduces the VAMs (through a speaker), and as stated prior, an ear or similar device is still needed to produce the 'perception' known as sound. Conclusion: The mere presence of VAMs is not sufficient for 'sound'. Yea? Nay?
From:	Mike DiGrazia	2005-02-25 06:06:59
Subject:	Appologies
Comment:	I would just like to take this opportunity to apologies to Daniel Strnad for my lack of clarity in the former question of my latter argument. Or maybe I made a mistake of ending my clarity with my sentence marked as clear. But in getting carried away with the final strokes of my logical masterpiece perhaps I was too rash. Simply put in my above argument I included: 'If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it then does it produce something that someone heard?” By this I meant to ask 'was what the tree specifically produced specifically heard by someone' not “does the tree produce something that is like something heard elsewhere”. Again I apologies for the confusion, shooting myself in the foot in your general direction, and also for the poor souls who get so caught up in trying to prove that humans are the centre of the universe. Thank you
From:	Vinesa	2005-03-01 01:26:28
Subject:	Falling tree
Comment:	If a tree falls in a forest and nobody around in one million miles does it make a sound or noise? My answer is 'NO' because trees don't fall to the ground cuz the tree won't recover. So the tree is a log when it is non-recoverable so a tree never makes a noise because trees never hit the ground.
From:	James	2005-05-12 00:00:51
Subject:	This question is fucking ridiculous
Comment:	I think the definition of sound is the key here, and I have noticed that some of you havent been reading the definition properly.. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. Now, if youre smart, you'd realise, that the whole first part of the definition of sound, rules out any possibility that humans have to be able to pick up the waves for it to be a sound. I realise some of you like to rebel and make argue that it doesnt make a sound just for the sake of it, but the fact of the matter, due to the conservation of energy rule, anything making contact with enough force, which isnt in a vacuum, will produce a sound. Simple as that. Go do some physics courses if you dont believe in this definition of sound, I assure you its the commonly accepted definition amongst the smartest people in the world.
From:	Katiusha	2005-05-13 18:12:23
Subject:	You lazy bloody bastards!
Comment:	Read all the comments before posting your moment of glory you selfish, dispassionate, uncaring masses! You keep repeating previous points over and over again, what is a Glory or Point in that?!!! You just look stupid and ridiculous, cheap and desparate for attention, embarassingly childish. How old are you anyway?!!!! 'does the tree' make ==> ('yes' or 'no' question) a noise? ==> what is noise? if we know that, we can say 'yes' or 'no' My answer is 'yes' you perverted, onanistic, 'I am so clever I should be on TV' idiots.
From:	Zonya	2005-05-13 18:28:41
Subject:	Paper
Comment:	After having read Vinesa's comments I would like to make a valuable contribution to this fascination discussion by stating that falling sheet of paper does not make any noise either. And it is made of trees (or recycled paper as goverments try to make us believe but the question was about trees)
From:	adam	2005-08-08 13:15:17
Subject:	falling trees and life
Comment:	While you ponder the falling of hypothetical trees, time passes. This time is your life which you cannot rewind. My philosophy is, don't waste your life philosophising, live it!
From:	the truth	2005-08-25 02:20:46
Subject:	the forest
Comment:	A more socially relevant question is - if a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?
From:	flakius	2005-09-24 13:18:00
Subject:	falling tree
Comment:	If I call your name out loud, with all my might, but you are deaf, or just passed away, do I make a sound? I think there are other question on which to spend some time.........The truth is, of course, the tree makes a sound when falling down, even if there is not a single living creature in the woods...forget about sound waves and any such things. The tree makes a sound regardless of whether you are near enough to hear it or not. The fact that I am blind does not mean that there is nothing to be seen, is there? The fact that I am deaf does not mean there is nothing to be heard....there is, and that may be the falling tree......People, stop being so complicated..neither the question nor the answer are that complex.
From:	existence	2005-09-29 09:56:43
Subject:	Us vs Tree
Comment:	Maybe the whole “tree falling down” question is about us not existing? Maybe falling down tree never makes a noise for we are not here to hear it but only believe we are? That would be rather funny.
From:	Mike DiGrazia	2005-10-06 07:02:37
Subject:	Clutter
Comment:	I think it's important to point out at this time that this forum has become rather cluttered. It would benifit from some gleaning of the rather useless coments some people tend to make (if you don't know who you are thats kind of sad...). Maybe it should be split into two threads; one for good ideas and usefull arguments, and another for idiots wanting to jabber on about nothing of importance and the parrots as well. Ohh and also this one.
From:	john	2005-10-06 20:47:44
Subject:	falling tree
Comment:	The falling tree makes a sound but it cannot be heard, therefore the debate is not the fact if it has been heard or not but simply if it makes a sound.
From:	brad adams	2005-11-11 01:44:50
Subject:	does the tree that falls make a noise?
Comment:	this is truely a great riddle yet no matter what u think u cant truely answer it if the tree fell the sound waves would still travel yet how could it make a sound if nothing can here it for to have sound u need to hear yet the waves still travel through the oxygen so this questin cant be answerd and i think we all know that thats why we still think about it
From:	Armadelo	2005-11-12 23:11:13
Subject:	it is heard
Comment:	I agree with the John above, this debate does not make any sound but it is heard, simple, innit?
From:	Thomas Channing	2005-12-20 19:23:43
Subject:	Words Exist by Nature
Comment:	WORDS EXIST BY NATURE I Wrote a book explaining the true existence of words. It is not my belief it is a fact. My two brothers and I have been studying this for years. From 500 A.D. back, all the ancient writings were put here for our learning. There exist a hidden world in the ancient writings that can only be seen by the minds eye. 'There are Knowables and Unknowables'. Where or how the Great Works of Words came down to us is the greatest Unknowable of all time. My book is not yet published. There is no market for selling the truth. I'm not writing to you looking for a publisher, I,m searching for someone with an open mind with some hope of sparking an interrest. Someone once said 'The world is round'. Then everybody laugh at him and said 'You idiot every one knows the world is flat'. Then some one said 'The earth goes around the sun'. Then again everyone laugh and said 'You idiot everyone knows the earth is the center of our solor system'. Now Thomas Channing is telling everyone that 'Words Exist by Nature'. Now I'll sit back and listen for your laughter.
From:	Biggie	2006-01-03 21:26:40
Subject:	Sutras...
Comment:	Are You talking about Mantras, Sutras and sanscrit being the primordial sounds of Life Thomas? Still.. what does it have to do with falling tree? Are You suggesting that, because trees always fall down, they always make a noise?
From:	Shane	2006-02-15 03:01:52
Subject:	Tree falling when no ones around
Comment:	Sound is created by vibrations. When a tree falls and hits the ground, the tree and the ground vibirate. These vibrations create compressions and rarefractions in the surrounding air. So, Yes there would be a sound.
From:	The Boy Who Would Be King	2006-04-15 05:45:44
Subject:	?
Comment:	This is America. Land of the free. Home of the outspoken. Champions of Righteousness and people who cannot spell. Speak out your comments from the streets, and the beaches, and the internet, since we all such lazy but righteouss Americans. Or go to the library, since we don't know how to get to the nearest library. Remember, remember who you are. You are what you can become. A couch potatoe, with unlimited high speed internet. When the great questions of the twentieth century shall rage forth, and there is no politician who cares enough to answer, the common man, with his bag of Doritos, must shout forth in glorious triumph. Valiantly, unceasingly, and unshakably. I am an American. I express Art! Thus I have spoken, an American. Speak forth oh ye people of liberty, with your twinkies and bags of cheetos. Huzzah. Thankyou for reading this. Oh, a tree might make a sound, I am just not sure.
From:	Mike Didilidee	2006-04-15 07:28:28
Subject:	Of No Significance.
Comment:	Yes. The tree makes a sound. Why? Well I can prove it with my book, One Hundred and One ways to Kill a Mockingbird, find out how much a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood, the ins and outs of the universe, secrets revealed, why girls are so hard to understand, and the whole tree thing. Now my book has several important points, which are too long for this commenting area. But if you can find it, please, read it. Be enlightened, eat a twinkie, drink some Root Beer, hit people with bumper cars, make brownies, and keep life rated G. Because you never know when the tree that you are tracking to see if it makes a sound falls, hits you on the head, and takes you out of this life. I hate commercials. Good Day.
From:	sevenQ	2006-04-19 00:12:41
Subject:	YES
Comment:	well with the tree and all i would have to say that it does make a sound and if anyone disagrees, they sould prove it first and stop waisting their breath. I am also in band and all of the instuments cannot compare to the quality of the snare drum!!!! for endurance, the drum ways 20 lbs. and your arms are mooving really fast. so you are all wrong. drum sticks come from trees. any ways. peace out SEVENq
From:	I play heavy metal	2006-04-19 05:31:42
Subject:	don't knock it!
Comment:	excuse me sevenq!! I'm not bashing drumline but don't bash sousaphones!! they are about 30-32 lbs, instead of your arms flayling you have to have a TON of breath support and your chops are all in your mouth!! in the wind it is like a huge windcatcher and you can hardly stay on your feet. also you are the main support of the band...where drumline is the tempo, sousaphones are the main foundation for the band...don't knock it till you've done it because you just don't know how hard it is...and I'm not saying yours isn't hard but it's different and you didn't seem to care at all except that your narrow little mind 'knew' that sousaphones aren't as hard or simply as 'cool' as a drum. I would like to see you try to play a sousaphone in a marching band but you'd have to learn it first and that is really hard also, to be able to get the correct buzz to make the correct note with good tone quality and all that jazz is hard. so I'd like to see you try, don't knock it till you can do it successfully or atleast try it and fail miserably!! oh and I'm pretty sure that a tree still makes a sound whether or not someone is around to hear it or not
From:	Publius Cornelius Scipio	2006-07-07 01:41:32
Subject:	What Ho!
Comment:	What Ho! Young, or perhaps old and wrinkling no one of no importance. I must ask, what is your favorite kind of pie, I am quite fond of Pecan. And how doth one say 'Pecan?' How much doth thou love pie? Does the tongue craveth it like the fierce craving of the Carthiginians for Iberia? Canst thou elaborate on why the Viola is in your opinion the most preferred choice and best instrument? As for this philisophical debate about this...tree thing, I wouldst draw thy attention to the great philosopher, Socrates: 'All I know is that I know nothing.' Thankyou, that is all.
From:	chinesemafia	2006-08-05 03:23:13
Subject:	NO SOUND
Comment:	If a tree in the forest fell, and nobody was there, it did not make any sound. Try proving otherwise in any court of law. Since no two trees are exactly alike, one cannot simply recreate the event using any other tree. It has to be that certain tree. The defense can simply argue that the tree fell in a once-in-a-lifetime-freak-of-nature manner that did not make any sound. One also cannot simply erect the particular tree which has fallen and make it fall again since the conditions will not be exactly the same, not to mention it will fall under tampering with the evidence. Don't you just love the justice system? <p> And for all the smart alecks out there: No, the prosecution was not able to obtain any audio or visual recordings that was taken at the time the tree fell.
From:	AJ Fletcher	2006-09-15 13:32:15
Subject:	trees falling
Comment:	if society falls and there are no trees around to here it does it make a sound? ...and what grows in its absence? thats a whole lot more interesting question.
From:	richy	2006-09-25 22:44:25
Subject:	trees
Comment:	in my opinion -- there will always be insects and animals living in and around trees , every tree !! so , when a tree falls it will always be heard ( if only by wildlife ) so yes it does make a sound - noise - vibrations or whatever the hell you want to call it !! by the way , i was down the woods today and i was looking at this tree and a huge bow broke and fell out of the tree at least 60 feet to the ground , chances of that actually happening in front of you must be millions to one , still it did , just had to tell someone , bye
From:	ZO	2006-10-10 06:24:16
Subject:	noises
Comment:	it would make a noise because a forest has a lot of wildlife and something would hear it even if it was an insect.
From:	bemially	2006-10-20 16:11:02
Subject:	no sound
Comment:	the question is a very logical question that needs alot of thinking and understanding but oboviously it does not make any sound as there is no evidence against it.
From:	esther	2006-10-21 11:06:10
Subject:	falling tree
Comment:	Sound is definatelt gonna be made whether or not someone is there.....
From:	Devin	2006-10-26 19:11:03
Subject:	Falling tree sounds
Comment:	Look even though this may or may not sound simple to you, the awnser to this question is deeper than you think. Now look, the definition of a sound is ;Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing, or in other words something a human can hear without any electrical help.With that said, it's mostly just a matter of your train of mind. If your one of those 'mr. or ms. literal' types, than for you the awnser is probablly yes, it makes a sound because for you it is the only logical awnser.But for you 'open minded thinkers', than it may not be so simple, because from the def., it says detected by the human organs of hearing. But if we are not there for our perverbial human organs of hearing to 'hear the sound vibration' the it dosen't make a sound.
From:	Sheik	2006-11-20 03:57:40
Subject:	Trees
Comment:	I completely agree with Devin, about how the vibration has to be picked up by an organisms hearing organs in order to make the sound happen. As for all of you who say something to the effect of: There are always wildlife and bugs in the forest, blah,blah,blah... The question is -IF! There is NO ONE: That means, no bugs, no cute little squirrels, no people. No one. So it makes no sound. Also, I think it is quite obnoxious when people like, oh I don't know, Mike DiGrazzi or what ever your name is pretends to be the author of this site, go away you short little wierdo!
From:	Shaster	2007-01-22 10:52:24
Subject:	Tree
Comment:	OK, so let's go one step further. A tree can be in two states, erect & prone. When an observer sees a tree fall, then it sees that tree transform from one state to another: from erect to prone, with the stages the tree goes through between being in the two main states. So if no one is there to witness the event, does the tree fall, or merely transform from one stae of being to another IE from being erect to being prone. The sound elememnt is a by product of the tree transforming from one state to another. So...the answer to the first question eneds to be provided in order to provide a supposition on the auditory phenomenon.
From:	Brian	2007-03-03 22:52:42
Subject:	Does a falling tree make a noise
Comment:	Of course it does...does a bear shit in the woods?
From:	Mike DiGrazia	2007-03-15 16:35:30
Subject:	A sad day..
Comment:	Well I decided to come back and see what could be seen and to my shock and amazement there were several, dare I say, offensive posts. This is supposed to be a place to discuss philosophy people, not a schoolyard to throw unprovoked insults around. *sigh* Up until now I made it a point to seriously (if not a little sarcastically) discuss the issue, but since I was poked fun at I guess I'll take this opportunity to poke a little fun myself :). First there's Thomas Channing and Mike Didilidee who's shameless self promoting brings dishonor on us all. Then comes chinesemafia who talks tough but knows very little about the court system (i.e. in a court of law one demonstrates probable cause not absolute proof). Certainly Devin had a good point, it is all in how you think about it but he forgets himself, and Occam's Razor, when he begins to speak of the deaf. Please stop trying to make the discussion more complicated then it has to be. One typically assumes that 'capable of being detected by human organs of hearing' refers to average, or healthy and working organs. Let me preempt the 'ass-out-of-u-and-me' argument right now... Assumptions are the basis for the entire scientific method. Last, but certainly not least lets take a look at Sheik, who not only misinterprets Devin's comment, fails to read any previous postings, and repeats what's the wrong things that have been said many times before; but attacks me personally for trying to be helpful by ... ohh I don't know making a suggestion for the organization of this forum. Well the truth is I am a short little weirdo, but I won't be going away and If you want to get personal feel free to e-mail me but please don't harass the innocent readers of this forum with your insecurity issues.
From:	unowot?	2007-05-24 04:18:29
Subject:	If a tree falls...
Comment:	Lets say the tree falls, no one hears the sound. how can we ourselves classify sound if our definition is based on the observation of conscious observers (or instruments)? Therefore, the whole argument is invalid if we first do not agree on what sound actually is. Idealistically, there is no sound if no one hears it. Therefore, the tree does not make a once it falls.
From:	Johanna	2007-06-21 22:05:30
Subject:	If a tree falls in the wood. . . . . . ?
Comment:	Unfortunately this questions hinges on what defintion of sound you adhere to, in the dictionary sound if defined as both 'a sensation produced by stimulation of the organs of hearing by vibrations transmitted through the air or other medium' which would support the answer of no as there are no hearing organs close enough to sense the vibrations, or it is also defined as 'mechanical vibrations transmitted through an elastic medium, travelling in air at a speed of approx 331m per second at sea level' which supports the answer of yes if you believe that sound can be mechanically defined. i personally believe in the rhythm of the planet and subsequently I believe that everything makes it own sounds/vibrations and it is us at the only partially evolved form as we are that is unable to feel the subtle vibrations which our hearing organs sing to us. Xxxxxxx
From:	Goerge	2007-08-03 19:46:12
Subject:	wrong!!!
Comment:	You are all wrong! It is other way around!
From:	chinesemafia	2007-10-01 08:45:55
Subject:	After over a year
Comment:	I am checking to see if anyone commented to my answer. I agree, perhaps my example of the justice system was not good. I was more or less demostrating the possibility of a statistical anomaly, which in the real world does happen.
From:	jordyn	2007-12-23 19:26:24
Subject:	my tree fell down
Comment:	my tree fell down because my dad cut it down. i really loved that tree. Now one of my dad's friend is using the top of it for his christmas tree. i cried a cup full of tears.( not kidding).
From:	JOhnyCrazymna	2008-04-07 16:38:21
Subject:	trees fallin'...
Comment:	Someone said something about vibrations, someone else said something about noise not existing if humans aren't there to pick the vibrations up, another mentioned animals. I say that there's gotta be animals around, so they can hear it. But even if no one or no thing was around to 'hear' it, yeah, there's still sound. It's like saying, if no ones around to feel the warmth from the sun, is the sun actually hot? You better believe it! Do we HAVE to turn on a light to know electricity exists? No, but it's there!
From:	Acceptance	2008-08-29 23:38:46
Subject:	Re - The Question...
Comment:	There are as many answers as there are beings capabale either now, or at some point of being able to answer this question, but for me, as I can't answer the question for anyone else...The only plausable answer is, There is No Answer...Which interestingly, in its own right is a valid answer!
From:	Fred Head	2009-06-18 00:52:05
Subject:	Tree Falling
Comment:	You, and your pals, miss the true question. Which is; why would anyone involve themselves with the folly of a fools foolishness? I hesitate to refer to you as a man, because it seems to me that you are simply a confused little boy who lacks knowledge and understanding. Although I'm certain your ego tells you otherwise. P.S. The above mailbox is never opened or checked because people such as you are unstable and untrustworthy. Have another drink.